Dear Mr English, I don't want a tax cut

[davereid]

Bob the builder sold his business to pay his Placemakers bill and spent the balance on a holiday and a new ute, but it was OK because the new owner gave him a job. Then he wondered why he wasn't getting paid as much as he used to.

Bob did very well. If he managed his business that badly he should have been bankrupt.

[shrub]

No amount of hand-wringing and crying will stop it being the case. Get over it. Produce something. History tells us that being productive and having new technology can put you at the top of the heap. Crying wont do it.

History tells us a lot, but not many people are smart enough to listen. I take it from your comment that you can't counter my position?

[davereid]

But we don't. Because we've become obsessed with keeping up with the Joneses and so-called living standards and our ranking in the OECD and all the other unimportant things. We'd sacrifice our environment and our quality of life and everything that makes this country special to climb up one rung on the economic ladder. Greed and envy have blinded us to the true values. Don't look to the present government (or the previous one, for that matter) to return to a saner view.

You argue that once the squirrels have a full belly they should stop producing. Trouble is, another group of squirrels will keep producing. Soon, not only will they be fed, they will be warm. Then they will have health care. They may even cut down the gorse, sacrificing the environment to plant more nut trees. Then they will be able to have an education system as well.

[davereid]

History tells us a lot, but not many people are smart enough to listen. I take it from your comment that you can't counter my position?

I have completely demolished it. Bob was not a good builder. He was not a good trader. Joe is doing it now.

[shrub]

I have completely demolished it. Bob was not a good builder. He was not a good trader. Joe is doing it now.

No, you haven't demolished anything. If anything Bob was a good builder - if he was a bad builder, why did Joe buy his business and then employ him? Bob was short sighted and lacked commercial acument, and didn't realise that hanging on to his business made more sense in the long term - much like Our Masters past and present. Owning the means of production (which is where Joe is) gives power. We have sold our assets, our businesses and our land, not even to the highest bidder, usually just any bidder.

And do you know who Bob is in this analogy? the NZ government (past and present). And Joe is Australia, China, the US and anyone else that has bought our assets.

[Ixion]

Rule 1: He who owns the means of production has the power and the wealth.

Not quite.

He who controls the army and the guns has the power and wealth. Power flows from the barrel of a gun.

All your ownership doesn't mean diddley squat if I have more guns , I'll just take it away from you.

As for the squirrels, they were doing very nicely , gathering nuts galore. Until the wolves arrived. Armed with modern weapons. The squirrels knashed their teeth -the only weapons they had; those squirrels who had suggested building guns had been denounced as war mongers. But teeth knashing doesn't cut it against machine guns. the squrrels were massacred, the wolves sold off the nuts, and pigged out on squirrel meat before moving on to their next victims.

[shrub]

Not quite.

He who controls the army and the guns has the power and wealth. Power flows from the barrel of a gun.

All your ownership doesn't mean diddley squat if I have more guns , I'll just take it away from you.

He who has the means of production owns the army. And having lots of guns isn't such an advantage in an era of 4th generation warfare as the Americans and Israelis have learnt, often to their cost.

[shrub]

Not quite.

He who controls the army and the guns has the power and wealth. Power flows from the barrel of a gun.

All your ownership doesn't mean diddley squat if I have more guns , I'll just take it away from you.

He who has the means of production owns the army. And having lots of guns isn't such an advantage in an era of 4th generation warfare as the Americans and Israelis have learnt, often to their cost.

[davereid]

Rule 1: He who owns the means of production has the power and the wealth.

In our squirrel kingdom, that was the man who controlled the trees. In the world until the industrial revolution it was the man who controlled the land. Thats where we produced food. It gave us political turmoil and revolution.

But now it's irrelevant, at least for the capitalist west. Food is now a tiny part of our production. Less than 1/10th of the average working man's day is productive enough to provide his food.

What's this "means of production" that is tied up by the evil man ? What can't you produce because of his activity ?

[Ixion]

He who has the means of production owns the army. And having lots of guns isn't such an advantage in an era of 4th generation warfare as the Americans and Israelis have learnt, often to their cost.

Tell that to the Georgians, Mr Putin is doing pretty well. The problem the Israelis and Americans have is that they have the guns, but they're scared to use them. Mr Putin isn't

[davereid]

He who has the means of production owns the army. And having lots of guns isn't such an advantage in an era of 4th generation warfare as the Americans and Israelis have learnt, often to their cost.

Sorry, they are playing the nice game. Either the US or Israel could end conflict, in their area in a week. They have the tools, they just haven't used them yet. And I hope they are never driven to.

[Ixion]

In our squirrel kingdom, that was the man who controlled the trees. In the world until the industrial revolution it was the man who controlled the land. Thats where we produced food. It gave us political turmoil and revolution.

But now it's irrelevant, at least for the capitalist west. Food is now a tiny part of our production. Less than 1/10th of the average working man's day is productive enough to provide his food.

What's this "means of production" that is tied up by the evil man ? What can't you produce because of his activity ?

Substitute oil for food in your argument .

[shrub]

In our squirrel kingdom, that was the man who controlled the trees. In the world until the industrial revolution it was the man who controlled the land. Thats where we produced food. It gave us political turmoil and revolution.

But now it's irrelevant, at least for the capitalist west. Food is now a tiny part of our production. Less than 1/10th of the average working man's day is productive enough to provide his food.

What's this "means of production" that is tied up by the evil man ? What can't you produce because of his activity ?

Food may be a tiny part if the average man's working day, but it's our primary export. And the means of production is the corporations and businesses we all work for.

I'm fine, I'm a consultant and my means of production is my brain, but for the majority of New Zealanders they are destined to work for foreignors who own the profits from the businesses we used to own in NZ.

And on that note, I am sick of computer screens and beer is calling my name. Good debate BTW, I enjoyed your posts.

[davereid]

He who has the means of production owns the army. And having lots of guns isn't such an advantage in an era of 4th generation warfare as the Americans and Israelis have learnt, often to their cost.

He who controls the army is unconnected to he who produces. However, warfare is often considered to be a battle of economies. The rich win wars and extend their rule to the subjected.. Thank god its not the poor doing it.

[shrub]

He who controls the army is unconnected to he who produces. However, warfare is often considered to be a battle of economies. The rich win wars and extend their rule to the subjected.. Thank god its not the poor doing it.

Actually the poor are winning most wars these days, or at least causing a disproportionate degree of harm to the rich. The AK47 is the most destructive WMD ever built and can be purchased for a few dollars in some places.