Racing - relative risks? (Split thread)

[Edbear]

Should? Perhaps 'maybe should' would be better. It's not going to be the end of the world if you die, mum will still be able to look after the kids, and if not, your or your wifes parents. Children will be fine if their father dies, it's not the end of the world, and your wife would just remarry (after a suitable mourning period, or course).

Children are just children, they're not the most important most awesomest thing in the world that requires you to drop your entire life and loves over... sure they need consideration in almost every decision, but you're still your own person.

You don't have a burning passion for motorcycle road racing, so it will never make a lot of sense to you... but maybe some of PirateJafa's examples will help get across that family != end of your life/ambitions, even if those are a little (or a lot) dangerous.

That the IoM would be banned in other countries just shows those countries up as being the frightened little nanny states they are.

I think my post immediately before yours may explain things a bit better from my point of view. Certainly if you marry someone with the same passions and interests, as Paul obviously had, it may be a different story. But when you choose to marry someone and bring children into this world you have made a commitment to them to care for them and marriage is a sacrifice of one's own interests for the interests of the other. Too many see marriage as though they're employing a cook, cleaner and lover, while they continue to live the selfish life of a single person.

I'm afraid your post comes across as though from someone who is not married and does not have children and appears too casual and uncaring of the feelings and needs of a wife and children. I may be misjudging you, but have a read of what you've written from the viewpoint of a wife.

[slofox]

You could always do what I have done Edbear - wait until your kids have grown up and gone, wait until your are divorced and living on your own, wait until your health is compromised to the extent that your life expectancy is less than a decade... Then you can take as many risks as you want at no cost to anyone if you fuck up...works for me.

[imdying]

What, because I believe the man to be the head of the home and not letting my wife tell me what I can and can't do? It's a partnership, not a dictatorship, sure take her advice into consideration as you're unlikely to get a more balanced perspective from someone who knows you that well, but to be told you aboslutely "cannot" join biking like you've always wanted to just because of her say so, that's just ridiculous. As far as reading it from a wife's perspective; I wouldn't be foolish enough to marry someone who doesn't share my viewpoint on whether I can make my own decisions.

[R6_kid:Me]

because people race to feel alive, not to live in the fear that they might die.

[Stirts]

But when you choose to marry someone and bring children into this world you have made a commitment to them to care for them and marriage is a sacrifice of one's own interests for the interests of the other.

I don't agree at all with this ..... marriage is about sharing your life/dreams/aspirations with another - making some compromises yes, but sacrificing something that you love/believe in plants the seeds for resentment and unhappiness IMHO.

If you are to partake in something that is life threatening/dangerous like the IoM you make "arrangements" to ensure your family will be looked after...financially/emotionally whatever.

[manxkiwi]

No one's mentioned road racing in Ireland. It's not banned there and probably won't be either. There are quite a number of tracks, fast ones too. Dundrod is currently the fastest circuit in use in the world! I like Guy Martin's comment that if you put cotton wool all around the course so no one could get hurt, no one would go!

Something I like to point out too sometimes, is: statistics. Yeah yeah, you make of them what you will and can use them to put forward your point of veiw. But if you divide miles done by deaths, the Mountain course is the safest track ever raced on! Normally between 500 and 700,000 miles are covered each fornight, multiply that by 103 years and you see the magnitude. How much fun and excitement has been had in all that time?

That's my two cents anyway MK

[Edbear]

You could always do what I have done Edbear - wait until your kids have grown up and gone, wait until your are divorced and living on your own, wait until your health is compromised to the extent that your life expectancy is less than a decade... Then you can take as many risks as you want at no cost to anyone if you fuck up...works for me.

LoL!!! Well the kids are all grown up and gone and my health and body aren't in the best shape but we've decided divorce is too expensive and we're too tired and can't be bothered, so we're staying married... ('Sides, she's still hot...)

I don't agree at all with this ..... marriage is about sharing your life/dreams/aspirations with another - making some compromises yes, but sacrificing something that you love/believe in plants the seeds for resentment and unhappiness IMHO.

If you are to partake in something that is life threatening/dangerous like the IoM you make "arrangements" to ensure your family will be looked after...financially/emotionally whatever.

Maybe "sacrifice" is too strong a word here, yes, we share our lives and our desires and make compromises. I guess for me, my wife and kids come first and I live for them. It doesn't mean I don't do things for myself and for my own pleasure, but nothing comes ahead of my family, and as I said, seeing the fear and pain and tears on their faces as I fought to live in ICU, makes me keenly sensitive to the results of leaving them bereft.

Yes, there have been times I have resented having to sacrifice my own wants for my wife but the long term result is that I have a wife who genuinely appreciates me and wants to support me in things I want to do. Taking over this business meant she had to sacrifice much and endure the stress of struggling to pay bills, while she was the main income earner. She watched our money disappear down a seemingly bottomless pit with no return for months. Yet she has stood by me and done what she could to help me succeed.

I treasure her for that and I would make any sacrifice to give her and my children the best life I can. For these reasons, I would not do anything that would place my life at "needless" risk beyond the daily risks of living. Yes, I've enjoyed my biking, and hope to get back on a bike again. I'd even like to do a track day, but as I've pointed out there is a difference with events such as the IoM TT.

[madbikeboy]

Yeah, it's a dilemma. Cesare Parve once wrote that we don't remember, days, we only remember moments. With this passion, there is a downside; some of the side effects are brutal. We share responsibility for all of those around us who we love and who love us. Your lesson of sitting in ICU is a harsh one, a deciding moment that will influence the way you think in the future.

I wouldn't race at the Isle of Man; and I recall sitting with Paul at dinner a year or so ago in Wellington at a work do discussing him racing there - and I can recall the passion he had for the event. It's a difficult dilemma, matching the needs of everyone involved.

[scott411]

Something I like to point out too sometimes, is: statistics. Yeah yeah, you make of them what you will and can use them to put forward your point of veiw. But if you divide miles done by deaths, the Mountain course is the safest track ever raced on! Normally between 500 and 700,000 miles are covered each fornight, multiply that by 103 years and you see the magnitude. How much fun and excitement has been had in all that time?

but the track is only used a couple of times a year also, not year round like most purpose built race circuits,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...atal_accidents

[Maha]

129 have died at the IOM Track so it stands alone on that stat.
While I would not want to see the TT canned, and those that choose to race there know the exact risk, it must be said, why would ya? (yeah yeah, cos its there bla bla)
Barry Sheene wouldn't race there. The track itself has emmense safety issues, but I guess that adds to it.

You race there? there is that chance it will be your last outting.
In summary: Go forth and conquer lads.

[Edbear]

Yeah, it's a dilemma. Cesare Parve once wrote that we don't remember, days, we only remember moments. With this passion, there is a downside; some of the side effects are brutal. We share responsibility for all of those around us who we love and who love us. Your lesson of sitting in ICU is a harsh one, a deciding moment that will influence the way you think in the future.

I wouldn't race at the Isle of Man; and I recall sitting with Paul at dinner a year or so ago in Wellington at a work do discussing him racing there - and I can recall the passion he had for the event. It's a difficult dilemma, matching the needs of everyone involved.

You're right and I mentioned that my recent accident may also be an influence. It has heightened my sense of responsibility and shaken my confidence. I have been accident-free for 40 years apart from a couple of minor incidents, like falling off my bike at walking pace and being forced off a narrow gravel road by a cattle truck, again at very low speed, all over 30 years ago now, so to have such a serious accident at less than 50km/h and to nearly die as a result and experience the helplessness of a spin on oil, has shaken me up for sure. And also to see the effect on my wife and children, was sobering.

A passion for the sport is understandable and I know the thrill of high speeds and exploring the limits on a bike, revelling in the acceleration and watching the speedo climb into triple figures while banging away on the gear lever trying to keep up with the tach as it redlines so quickly in each gear... Yep! Love it! But this is about balancing safety and responsibility, especially where one has family to think about. I was always careful about when and where I let the bike, (or car for that matter), have its head and chose conditions that were conducive to it. I would not race at the IoM for the same reasons.

129 have died at the IOM Track so it stands alone on that stat.
While I would not want to see the TT canned, and those that choose to race there know the exact risk, it must be said, why would ya? (yeah yeah, cos its there bla bla)
Barry Sheene wouldn't race there. The track itself has emmense safety issues, but I guess that adds to it.

You race there? there is that chance it will be your last outting.
In summary: Go forth and conquer lads.

When it came to crashing, Barry was an expert! He broke just about every bone in his body at one time or another. By the end his legs were mostly metal!

[jellywrestler]

is not the same as racing at those same speeds on a road that has no consideration for safety and where almost any crash is going to hurt bad or result in death.

It is clear that you have a misinformed one eye'd opinion of the ISLE OF MAN TT Course. "no consideration for safety"
Racing and practice takes about ten days, some years there have been 600 competitors per meeting and I know the year I went the practice miles were approx 125000, and race miles approx 54000 in total, average speed was in the 123 MPH area. Apply those same numbers to many other tracks around the world and you'd find this track is not the most dangerous and as for no consideration to safety that's simply a through away comment that whoever utters it should be thrown away with the comment too.
Take Paul Dobbs record there, 37 finishes and prior to his final race he'd had just one DNF. Paul was the most experienced KIWI (interms of race miles)to race there since our first rider in 1910. He knew the risks and so did all those around him, he chose to ride and while I am saddened by his demise I have nothing but admiration for him both in life and now in death for balancing up those odds and making his own decisions.
RESPECT to the man and RESPECT to those who supported him, both then and now
SPYDA

[Edbear]

It is clear that you have a misinformed one eye'd opinion of the ISLE OF MAN TT Course. "no consideration for safety"
Racing and practice takes about ten days, some years there have been 600 competitors per meeting and I know the year I went the practice miles were approx 125000, and race miles approx 54000 in total, average speed was in the 123 MPH area. Apply those same numbers to many other tracks around the world and you'd find this track is not the most dangerous and as for no consideration to safety that's simply a through away comment that whoever utters it should be thrown away with the comment too.
Take Paul Dobbs record there, 37 finishes and prior to his final race he'd had just one DNF. Paul was the most experienced KIWI (interms of race miles)to race there since our first rider in 1910. He knew the risks and so did all those around him, he chose to ride and while I am saddened by his demise I have nothing but admiration for him both in life and now in death for balancing up those odds and making his own decisions.
RESPECT to the man and RESPECT to those who supported him, both then and now
SPYDA

You misunderstand me my friend. I said the road has no consideration for safety as I was contrasting it with a purpose designed race track. I know well how serious the officials and racers' take safety in racing and the efforts at the circuit to minimize the risk as much as possible. But everyone acknowledges the circuit is an unforgiving one and racer's compete knowing the heightened risk of racing on a public road at speeds the road was never designed for. The difference in a "proper" race track and the safety record of them testifies to the fact that the IoM TT is a far more inherently dangerous place with a corresponding increase in risk.

[Tony.OK]

Ed you have obviously had a profound moment in regards to your accident, and its made you see things in a new light.

For some people that happens, in any sport or situation, and they either decide to stop doing whatever they do, or keep going and try and be better.

Most people I would hazzard a guess live their whole lives without having an absolute passion, and thats just fine, but I think when someone has something that strong in their life and then meets someone that is prepared to support, love or just be there, its kinda special. I'm not just talking racing, you and your wife for eg sound like you have that in your own way.

Sure some will view a racer as being in a way selfish, but look at the other side, its not selfish if your partner/family fully supports and makes sacrifices for you to follow your dream...................thats true love dude, knowing what could happen, I think makes that even more special..............I'm no experienced racer but I know that my wife supports me regardless in whatever I choose to do, which rocks! When I decided to go racing she was so supportive (and is now my pit crew), we actually became much closer, yep she knows the risks, and has seen me takin off the track in an ambulance, but there has never been an inkling of dissaproval uttered from her lips.

Ahhh.......see now ya got me soundin all sappy........don't tell the missus

On a comparative note...........what about rugby? How many injuries does that account for? Do partners have huge concerns about their partner/kids being hurt?
At the end of the day its all about perpective and who's it is really aye?

[Edbear]

Ed you have obviously had a profound moment in regards to your accident, and its made you see things in a new light.

For some people that happens, in any sport or situation, and they either decide to stop doing whatever they do, or keep going and try and be better.

Most people I would hazzard a guess live their whole lives without having an absolute passion, and thats just fine, but I think when someone has something that strong in their life and then meets someone that is prepared to support, love or just be there, its kinda special. I'm not just talking racing, you and your wife for eg sound like you have that in your own way.

Sure some will view a racer as being in a way selfish, but look at the other side, its not selfish if your partner/family fully supports and makes sacrifices for you to follow your dream...................thats true love dude, knowing what could happen, I think makes that even more special..............I'm no experienced racer but I know that my wife supports me regardless in whatever I choose to do, which rocks! When I decided to go racing she was so supportive (and is now my pit crew), we actually became much closer, yep she knows the risks, and has seen me takin off the track in an ambulance, but there has never been an inkling of dissaproval uttered from her lips.

Ahhh.......see now ya got me soundin all sappy........don't tell the missus

On a comparative note...........what about rugby? How many injuries does that account for? Do partners have huge concerns about their partner/kids being hurt?
At the end of the day its all about perpective and who's it is really aye?

Okay, I won't tell...

Thanks for that. I think you understand my point and as I mentioned, Paul's wife's press release was interesting.

I guess it is down to perception and one's life experiences and I do admire the skills of racer's, I'm not knocking racing, per se, but asking the question of those who race and have families to consider, whether the risk of such courses as the IoM are worth it. Shaun knows first hand about this as a survivor, and has decided to quit racing. I'd be interested in your thoughts, Shaun, as someone I have a great deal of respect for, both for your talent as a rider and your efforts in rehabilitation and rebuilding your life since.

Yes, maybe I'm a bit of a woose since my accident - I know it's going to take some time to get my mojo back, but I also know that the accident has changed me, more so perhaps than the other 4 times I've nearly died... Maybe I'm just getting old...