Well good to see I'm no the only one.Originally Posted by scumdog
I really have nothing to gain but everything to lose by sticking my neck out here, its just what i believe to be true.
Trying to be a good dog
Well good to see I'm no the only one.
Forum whore
I though everyone knew who Scummy was...Well good to see I'm no the only one.Shows how careful one needs to be in making assumptions.
Okay, I take your point and appreciate your post. However it is not just religious types and wowsers advocating Cannabis remains illegal and it's not all intelligent people advocating it ne legalised. Sweeping erroneous statements do nothng to validate your argument and insulting people doesn't make you sound reasonable. Play the ball, not the man if you want to be taken seriously.
You need to consider the way laws are formulated and implemented. Think about all the "prohibition" laws, which most laws are. Using your arguments we should abandon speed laws, registration and WoF laws, after all, how much harm is done by people exceeding the speed limit by "just a few km/h"? How many accidents are caused by unregistered or unwarranted vehicles, yet people are criminalised by the authorities for breaking these laws.
Drugs are probably the most debated and controversial matters in law and are vigorously debated and researched by those charged with making the laws and regulations over their use and distribution. IMHO, alcohol should be far more vigorously regulated than it is and the only reason it is not is due to its history, much as, to a lesser extent was tobacco. Watch this space as to how alcoholism and binge drinking is dealt with in the future. Tobacco may be an indication of how this will pan out.
Alcohol use and abuse is a valid compqarison with Cannabis as to the likely outcome of decriminalising or legalising it. Witness the violence against Police fueled by alcohol. It is a reflection upon society, the attitude towards Police and the violence against Police, and there is little chance that legalising Cannabis will make any noticeable difference. As Scummy says, it will only be replaced by another drug due to the underlying problem which sees Cannabis as a vehicle for illegal activity to make money and power for the criminals.
You don't get to be an old dog without learning a few tricks.
Shorai Powersports batteries are very trick!
Trying to be a good dog
I'm sorry but I had trouble accepting such an anti sentiment, when most of my experiences with cannabis users has been positive. And the people I know who badly affected, often would be like that anyway
I disagree about many of your points Ed, I dont see how two different substances can be causing the same problems. As the snippet below from European police agencies would support
'..... has written to the Cabinet arguing that cannabis should be regulated in time for the Rugby World Cup in order to decrease alcohol violence during World Cup parties.
"We need to learn from Portugal's experience. They openly permitted cannabis use during the European World Cup and it was a success: there was far less violence. Portugal’s drug laws since 2001 have regulated all drug use through a non-Court process called Commissions of Dissuasion, with greatly improved health results."
Referring to the Euro 2004 tournament between France and England. Branded as 'hooligans', 50,000 fans - notorious for their drunken antics and ability to instigate all-out riots - descended upon Lisbon. Rather than ban alcohol, the authorities decided instead to sanction cannabis use by English and French fans before the game. The police priority was alcohol. As a result, the match took place without incident, even in the immediate aftermath of England's 2-1 defeat.'
Cannabis generally makes people peaceful, alcohol fuels anger. They affect the body in different ways. The before mentioned policeman has domestic after domestic incidents in West Auckland.
In the absence of any scientific data, I would hazard a guess that this would improve vastly if the general drinking public used cannabis instead.
Many things would improve, especially health expenses incurred by the state. We could all appreciate that? Cannabis users are cheap to run, especially by alcohol users standards, they just keep losing their keys and sunglasses
Link to study on alcohol and violence, funnily the Scandinavians don't get violent when pissed http://www.sirc.org/publik/fvalcohol.html
Sun article cops let footy fans smoke weed http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage...ticle89952.ece
And the Rat Park experiments from wiki are a must read regarding addiction http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rat_Park
Anarchic Wild Child
Yes, maybe. However, there are a lot of basically ordinary decent people out there who smoke cannabis - the gangs make huge amounts of money off these people, not unlike the alcohol prohibition times in America ... and with the associated violence against police and others ...
If it was legal to grow a small amount of cannabis for personal use, but illegal to sell it, then a lot of basically decent people would be able to grow their own and stop dealing with the gangs ... cutting off a source of gang funding.
Yes, the gangs might find another way to make money - possibly through the sale of another drug .. however a lot of people who smoke cannabis would not use another drug ... it's true that 90% of heroin users started on cannabis - it's equally true that 90% of cannabis users never use another drug ... they either stop using or just continue with cannabis ...
The problem of cannabis is largely one of moral panic ... it's generally a victimless crime, and the effects are no worse than alcohol. The only reason to make cannabis illegal is a moral reason. And we don't all share that moral reason.
And I don't agree that legalising it will mean that people will turn up to work stoned - such as dentists, airline pilots, doctors etc etc ... as has been suggested some times ... they are just as likely to turn up to work drunk ... which is just as bad ...
"So if you meet me, have some sympathy, have some courtesy, have some taste ..."
Forum whore
Are you sure about this? I suggest that those "basically decent people" are already growing a small amount for their personal use and do not call in to the tinnie houses. The Cannabis industry is a criminal scene and I'm sure the Police would paint a slightly different picture from the one you portray here. Maybe we can get some info from the authorites as to why they continue to support the law against Cannabis.
You don't get to be an old dog without learning a few tricks.
Shorai Powersports batteries are very trick!
Trying to be a good dog
Or the law against weekend trading, oh thats gone. or the law against gayness, oh thats gone. Or the law against drinking after 6pm, oh thats gone.
The cannabis industry is made illegal by prohibition as was the alcohol industry....prohibition drives the criminality....
Heres some really stupid laws, 50 stupid laws from 50 states: http://www.elistmania.com/still/50_s...tates/ShowAll/
dodgy is as dodgy does
what prohibition does is place the marketing and distribution of a range of some of the most heavily traded products in the hands of organised criminals, and grants them tax free status. Where else can you sell horticultural produce for over $1000 kg tax free ? WHere else can you convert cheap chemicals into a substance that sells for (from what I recall) $1,000,000 kg in your own kitchen and not have to worry about employment agreements for your staff, OSH, cleanliness, resource consents etc? What other importer can turn a $1.00 can of baked beans into a product that sells for $100,000 by changing the contents?
I believe that the issue is a health problem, and ALL drugs should be legalised - yes, all drugs including P. If a P user could go down to a local clinic and purchase his hit for $10.00, and had a maximum amount able to be purchased in a set period and his transaction was recorded in a database it would allow the health authorities to monitor use and offer addiction support for people consuming over a certain amount. We would be able to help people who needed it, and there would be zero money in the drug, so the gangs wouldn't bother. And P is mainly not produced by the black power and mongrel mob, it's mostly available through organised Asian crime. In other words, drug prohibition has opened NZ to groups like the Triads.
There is a definition of insanity that goes something like "insanity is doing the same thing and expecting a different result". Prohibition has been an abject failure by any measure, yet our beloved leader's response to dealing wth the P problem was to make cold and flu drugs only available by prescription, yet hundreds of kgs of P and even more raw materials come in from China every day.
Don't blame me, I voted Green.
dodgy is as dodgy does
Because they're required to.
Don't blame me, I voted Green.
Anarchic Wild Child
No - many many ordinary people smoke a weekend joint - or two ... and they score from tinnie houses ... just sit outside a tinnie house and watch who goes in ... but be careful, the owners might think you're a D keeping an eye on them ... too risky to grow ... you might get away with $120 fine for possessing a tinnie - cultivation will get you PD at least ...
The harder drugs are certainly part of the criminal scene ...
It's in the police's interest to portray things as bad as possible so they get resources and backing ... much like the American military who painted the Socviets as black as possible to get more funding for new and higher powered weapons ...
"So if you meet me, have some sympathy, have some courtesy, have some taste ..."
Forum whore
By whom?
Ahhh, the old conspiracy theory stance. I would respectfully suggest the Police would find this claim laughable and that they would much prefer not having to deal with gangs and tinnie houses and the whole criminal scene around the issue. The fact is that it is bad and the Police don't need to exaggerate.
It is, however in the media's interests to beat up the news stories and it is so laughably obvious when watching the news that they are really trying to provoke controversy and sensationalism by the words and phrases they use. Recently in interviews, I have applauded the Police spokespersons for correcting the journalists and countering their attempts.
You don't get to be an old dog without learning a few tricks.
Shorai Powersports batteries are very trick!
L-Plate Rider
Corrected for posterity.
As for the legalisation of all drugs, there's really only two groups of people whom argue for such a thing:
1. Drug users themselves
2. People that have faith in a idealistic socialist utopia.
Blatant fact is that in todays society it simply would not work
Take the drugs away from organised crime, and organised crime will simply find another income. Legitimise Meth and its ilk and you are asking for a complete breakdown in societal values.
Anarchic Wild Child
Umm .. I'm kinda wondering about this "complete breakdown in societal values" .. didn't that haopen in the 1960s .. and again when we changed the homosexual laws, and the prostitution laws ??
I'm wondering what values are left to breakdown?
"So if you meet me, have some sympathy, have some courtesy, have some taste ..."
L-Plate Rider
Agreed, there's not much left to break down. However, the Meth addled brain is a somewhat different beast to the brain addled with cannibinoids, Lysergic acid, even opiates. Fact is that Meth is the number 1 drug of choice behind cannabis.
My point regarding societal values is that of a civilised society. Homosexuality and Prostitution do not risk lives. Drug use (whether illicit or state sanctioned) Does.
Has left the building
Intrigued here...how does canabliss risk lives?
A sensible, realistic answer would be appreciated and no I'm not referring to someone driving,working etc on weed
Forum whore
This is KB, but we'll do our best...
Personally I put it on par with alcohol as far as the health risks go in addition to the smoking risk. I've posted a link to the known health issues recently. I'm doing some research into the political and Police views and reasons for the laws as they stand. So watch this space for their responses, should be interesting.
You don't get to be an old dog without learning a few tricks.
Shorai Powersports batteries are very trick!
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