The AA are lying about us.

**Pixie** · 21st July 2010, 19:25

Originally Posted by dipshit

BRONZ And Prof Lamb are the ones trying to pull the wool over people's eyes. (no pun intended)

Prof Lamb looked at Auckland and Christchurch figures only. That will create a sampling bias of more multi vehicle accidents.

The AA figures on the fatals are indeed a reality. The MOT put fatal motorcycle accidents at about 75% as rider at fault http://www.transport.govt.nz/researc...-Factsheet.pdf (bottom of page 4)

This does quite often come as a surprise to those who keep listening to BRONZ's bullshit.

Nice to know you have faith in the people who determine the causes of accidents.(the police)

Vehicle was moving = speed was a factor in the accident.
Motorbike crashed due to lax road maintenance = Biker's fault for riding at all.

**riffer** · 21st July 2010, 19:35

Originally Posted by davereid

We will have 3 types of crashes. And, we know they all have an equal chance of occuring.
They are

Red Car hits Red Car
Blue Car hits Blue Car
Red Car hits Blue Car

We have just shown the RED car to be a factor in 66% of crashes.

How the fuck do you get that? Apply a % rating to the incidence of colour of car.

There are six different potential contributors to an accident.

Red Car, Red Car, Blue Car, Blue Car, Red Car, Blue Car

Each has a % rating of 16.75%.

There are three contributors for Red Car = 16.75 x 3 = 50%
There are three contributors for Blue Car = 16.75% x 3 = 50%

So I've disproved your argument even before I introduce the obvious fact that you neglected the fourth, fifth and sixth type of crashes:

4. Blue Car hits Red Car
5. Red Car crashes by itself
6. Blue Car crashes by itself.

Dipshit and Katman's delivery is diabolically insensitive - shit I'm Aspergers and even I can tell that - but their logic is sound.

Believe it or not though there are many within BRONZ who actually would like to change many bikers opinions about riding and I'm one of them. I may not be an angel but I do realise that the public DO have a bad opinion of us, and to a certain extent they're right. I'm guilty of helping them to have that opinion.

Some of us in BRONZ do want to make a difference - and I think this message has to a certain extent been lost within the anger about the ACC levy increases.

**riffer** · 21st July 2010, 19:37

Originally Posted by Pixie

Motorbike crashed due to lax road maintenance = Biker's fault for riding at all.

Bollocks. Accept some responsibility for your lack of ability to read the road conditions. When I was a teenager the roads were way worse and we learned to ride to the conditions.

Again, I despair at the "It's my right to have everything given to me on a plate" and "It's not my fault if I fuck up" mentality.

**Ocean1** · 21st July 2010, 19:49

Originally Posted by riffer

When I was a teenager the roads were way worse and we learned to ride to the conditions.

Yeah, but because the surfaces were a serious variable you learned not to trust your grip eh?

Reckon the first stage in a graduated licence system should be 100 hrs on a 125 dirt bike, in a greasy padock.

Originally Posted by riffer

Again, I despair at the "It's my right to have everything given to me on a plate" and "It's not my fault if I fuck up" mentality.

Different rant, mate. They're responsible whether they believe so or not, ignore the bleating.

**davereid** · 21st July 2010, 19:51

Originally Posted by riffer

How the fuck do you get that? Apply a % rating to the incidence of colour of car. There are six different potential contributors to an accident. Red Car, Red Car, Blue Car, Blue Car, Red Car, Blue Car Each has a % rating of 16.75%. There are three Contributors for Red Car = 16.75 x 3 = 50% There are three contributors for Blue Car = 16.75% x 3 = 50% So I've disproved your argument even before I introduce the obvious fact that you neglected the fourth, fifth and sixth type of crashes: 4. Blue Car hits Red Car
5. Red Car crashes by itself 6. Blue Car crashes by itself. Dipshit and Katman's delivery is diabolically insensitive - shit I'm Aspergers and even I can tell that - but their logic is sound.

Believe it or not though there are many within BRONZ who actually would like to change many bikers opinions about riding and I'm one of them. I may not be an angel but I do realise that the public DO have a bad opinion of us, and to a certain extent they're right. I'm guilty of helping them to have that opinion. Some of us in BRONZ do want to make a difference - and I think this message has to a certain extent been lost within the anger about the ACC levy increases.

I thinks its a Q.E.D.

I was demonstrating how statistics could be used to create a viewpoint that appeared sound, but was not.

Switching the denominator is a very common technique. Watch it used in the next year or so to "prove" we need a lower drink drive limit.

You have done it yourself in your reply, identifying 6 potential contributors to a crash.

I could only find one, the driver.

**riffer** · 21st July 2010, 19:54

Originally Posted by davereid

I thinks its a Q.E.D.

I was demonstrating how statistics could be used to create a viewpoint that appeared sound, but was not.

Switching the denominator is a very common technique. Watch it used in the next year or so to "prove" we need a lower drink drive limit.

You have done it yourself in your reply, identifying 6 potential contributors to a crash.

I could only find one, the driver.

LOL. OMG so very true...

**Rogue Rider** · 21st July 2010, 19:59

Its of no suprise that pretty much statistics can be manipulated to say anything...... Especially by adding words like approximately, about, and most.........
These reporters and recorders are simply mungerers of lies and deceit.

It's all poohs I tell you, Pooh's.

**bogan** · 21st July 2010, 20:03

Originally Posted by Ocean1

Reckon the first stage in a graduated licence system should be 100 hrs on a 125 dirt bike, in a greasy padock..

check! learnt on a cb125, then a cr125, then a rm125, then road bikes. Though I still managed to drop it during a front wheel lock up, no training is completely idiot-proof! But after off-road stuff i must have got so good at falling off that I didn't fuck myself up any.

**riffer** · 21st July 2010, 20:09

Originally Posted by Ocean1

Reckon the first stage in a graduated licence system should be 100 hrs on a 125 dirt bike, in a greasy padock.

Which is pretty much how those of us who grew up in the Hutt in the 70s and 80s did it too mate. I did all my learning on the Hutt Riverbank between Stokes Valley and Pomare, and in the tracks around Stokes Valley.

After a while you get sick and bloody tired of having to fix your traillie and end up not crashing.

**davebullet** · 21st July 2010, 20:15

Originally Posted by BoristheBiter

Where i agree with what you are trying to say i can't see how someone pulling out in front of me is my fault. It is done to me all the time in my car so if they can't see me or judge my speed while i am in a car how the fuck could they do it while I am on my bike.

What you are getting at is defencive driving, thats what stops me from hitting these tossers.
Someone fails to give way, their fault end of story.

Sure - it isn't your fault if:
you are travelling at less than 30kph
its is daylight
no sunstrike
road surface ok
you are fully alert
you are as visible as possible (lane position / hi-vis gear / lights on etc...).
you know how to emergency stop and apply your brakes to just before the point of tucking the front
you wear the best protective gear
your bike and tyres are wof compliant

I just think someone ticking all the above boxes in a u-turn incident is highly,highly unlikely. Either I am a bit naive and haven't had anyone do this to me, or I have pre-empted the situatoin... usually by slowing right down or avoiding known streets / times of day where there is a high fuck up rate.

If you are are not riding to protect your life - that in itself is a failure / fault.

The law doesn't keep me safe. The law is an arse. I do that job (the keeping safe bit, not being an arse).

**davebullet** · 21st July 2010, 20:22

An example...

I was splitting down Ngauranga gorge about a year ago.

I was in the right lane (just to the left of the right lane traffic). I was going about 60kph, cars about 30kph a gap in traffic to the left. A Subaru driver suddenly changed lane to take the gap (no indicating). I was next to her. HEr wing mirror caught my right handlebar, I moved over to the left with her. God knows how I stayed upright, luckily my bar didn't "lock" into the wing mirror / door.

She was totally at fault - right? Well
I was speeding
I didn't notice the gap
I wasn't confident enough to swerve / evasive maneouvres
I was oblivious to Subaru legacy / impreza drivers
I probably wasn't concentrating as hard as I should have been

I now am very weary of gaps. I use a car as a shadow / buffer until the gap is filled. I've become much better at swerving to avoid obstacles in the road or evasive changes. I haven't been caught in a similar situatoin but have "read" it before it happened numerous times since.

I took the responsibility / blame. I'm now better off for it.

**dipshit** · 21st July 2010, 20:26

Originally Posted by davereid

I was demonstrating how statistics could be used to create a viewpoint that appeared sound, but was not.

You should become a spokesman for BRONZ. Your ability to bury your head in the sand and talk shit is right up there with the rest of those idiots.

They need someone good at talking shit to deal with all this bad press...

"There were about 43 motorcyclist deaths, of which motorcyclists themselves were responsible for 35. Car drivers were responsible for four. Young men and men in their 40s and 50s predominated."

http://www.aa.co.nz/aadirections/dri...Our-Roads.aspx

"Police say that, unusually, all 11 of the fatalities since last September were the fault of the motorcyclist. In the five cases where other vehicles were involved, the drivers of those vehicles were not at fault."

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crim...sparks-tension

"Transport Minister Steven Joyce says the number of motorbike riders dying is a real worry because it is the one casualty toll that has continued to grow."

http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/storie...1/12481056ac4c

**Ocean1** · 21st July 2010, 20:56

Originally Posted by riffer

Which is pretty much how those of us who grew up in the Hutt in the 70s and 80s did it too mate.

You grew up? It was optional y'know.

Especially in the valley.

Originally Posted by riffer

After a while you get sick and bloody tired of having to fix your traillie and end up not crashing.

And the body, pain is the best teacher. And I bounced WAY better then...

**jeffs** · 22nd July 2010, 00:30

Bikes crash, cars crash, airplanes crash, that is why AA insurance exists.

What defines the death rate is the level of protection.

If you hit an immovable object at 100kmh it makes no difference what that object is made of.

In a car you may survive, on a bike you are less likely too.

2% of the population and 10% of the deaths is not always about bad driving, its about hard stopping, and being made up of nothing more that skin and bone.

Reducing the number of crashes may get the death rate down, but not all, if the remaining crashes are at 100kmh.

I ride a bike to feel alive, I don't have to ride it badly or madly to feel alive, but if I go to work with the flow of motorway traffic and crash, no matter who is a fault, I have a lower survivability level than a car.

I will die one day, I don't want it to be riding a bike, but I also don't want it to be of old age in bed.

For gods sake stop the doom and gloom.

A death costs ACC less money than a long term disability, don't get death rates and ACC costs mixed up.

**Berries** · 22nd July 2010, 07:41

Originally Posted by shrub

OK, but I doubt the stats will be significantly different. I don't have access to the latest LTSA stats and have asked Charley to look them up, but he's busy as buggeree at the moment so I'm not holding my breath. If I get a chance this afternoon I'll pop in to the local office and see what I cam get.

Give me till lunchtime and I will post the 2009 fatal stats myself.