Invite - 2nd protest against police pursuits today

[scumdog]

There wouldn't be so much of this if our laws dealt with offenders first or second time round - N.Y. confiscates cars and ensures dicks stay off the road... basics missing etc etc

But...but...if you did a runner and the law was as you seem to think it should be there would be NO offenders caught, would there?

[BoristheBiter]

I dunno. I'd trust the cops to make that call on how long after the violent event, 30 years may be pushing it.
Gawd thats inventive - it would stuill seem reasonable to me to chase in that scenario as it is in good faith one would be thinking the driver was a person of interest. But are persons of interest able to be formally distinguished by the seriousness of the catch ie violent offense suspect versus non traffic ticket payer... is there like a red flag code for serious offenders in the system? Or is it just in verbal handovers or wanted posters etc that you are made aware of who current "most wanteds" are.

Until there is a crash and you go and have a little protest.
You can't have it both ways, either you want police to continue pursuits or not.

[candor]

BS - its not an "yes anything goes" or a "no chase ever allowed" choice. As you would know there are varying levels of restrictiveness available to those setting chase policy. Bites?

[candor]

But...but...if you did a runner and the law was as you seem to think it should be there would be NO offenders caught, would there?

Is the goal apprehension or protecting life? Why did we need to go from issuing 100,000 speeding tickets to nearly 10x that yrly in a few short years - why has a 50% increase in road police hours only "altered" highway based crashes from 1.6 billion in costs to 1.6 billion in social costs of crashes by MoT methodology (Police progress report) and taken ACCs future crash claim liabilities on current account from 2Billion to 7 Billion since 2002? Why does the AA say the more tickets the more trauma...
This is turning into a donut thread... but again check the experience in Canada, there was no increase in runners when heavuily prohibitive chase policy was bought in, 100 still ran but 40000 continued stopping per year. No increased general crime, reduced road trauma. Win - win, except for those who like a good chase. The sky won't fall if some KBer or many even who might creep 10 k over the speed limit fails to stop and isn't hunted down like the dog he is to take his medicine (dead or alive). Work smart, work less cleaning up at crash scenes, less overtime could become an issue...?

[scumdog]

This is turning into a donut thread... but again check the experience in Canada, there was no increase in runners when heavuily prohibitive chase policy was bought in, 100 still ran but 40000 continued stopping per year. No increased general crime, reduced road trauma. Win - win, except for those who like a good chase. The sky won't fall if some KBer or many even who might creep 10 k over the speed limit fails to stop and isn't hunted down like the dog he is to take his medicine (dead or alive). Work smart, work less cleaning up at crash scenes, less overtime could become an issue...?

So when does a chase become one?

I suspect if there was a 'no chase' policy there would be a real liklihood that 'non-stoppers' would not be reported if police did not really get into a chase.

i.e: Cop starts after car for whatever reason, car does not stop and increases speed to over speed limit, cop drops back to original speed, shrugs shoulders and thinks "meh, another one away, no point in reporting it".

So then the figures showing that figures for failing to stop by drivers would be skewed.

[candor]

Yep - figures can be played with including Police sometimes trying to say a chase wasn't on when it did all turn to custard. The main ones to take account of though are surely the final toll figures as they relate to varying approaches to chases. Depends where the emphasis is - should we judge Police success by numbers of folk caught and processed, or by level of harm which may have no direct relationship. Domestic violence can be resolved with out prosecution numbers necessarily being the measure of success. As in Police can use alternate processes to reduce recidivism or harm. Showing less convictions but also maybe less domestic violence murders regardless because they dealt with complaints by other means.

[marty]

You don't want cops to chase, but perhaps you do. It depends. Possibly. You'd trust the cops to make that call.

What exactly is it that you want?

[marty]

Yep - figures can be played with including Police sometimes trying to say a chase wasn't on when it did all turn to custard. The main ones to take account of though are surely the final toll figures as they relate to varying approaches to chases. Depends where the emphasis is - should we judge Police success by numbers of folk caught and processed, or by level of harm which may have no direct relationship. Domestic violence can be resolved with out prosecution numbers necessarily being the measure of success. As in Police can use alternate processes to reduce recidivism or harm. Showing less convictions but also maybe less domestic violence murders regardless because they dealt with complaints by other means.

You really are living in fantasy land.

How do you suggest domestic violence is dealt with in a way that doesn't involve punitive action?

The Police aren't there for education and giving out lollipops. They are the ambulance at the bottom of the cliff. They're the ones left at the fight to clean it up after everyone else has fucked off. They're the ones running towards the gunshots when everyone is is running away. There are other agencies that have cupboards full of hugs and icecream - the Police do not. It's like saying - St John Ambulance should be helping people not have heart attacks/car crashes/get stabbed. No one does, because it's not their role. We employ our Police to keep us safe - to kick bad guys' arses. Unfortunately bleeding heart greenies and soft-cock judges over the past 10 years have pushed them into a 'justfication for farting' culture.

[candor]

What's wanted - a more sophisticated policy that cuts chases back from current excessive levels by working on both ends ie look at offender climate modoifications and look at altering discretion and chase indications. The present high chase level is a recent development and doesn't need depending on for the job to get done. More needs doing to ask why and to turn it round. And doing of that with a good faith not blaming attitude. I appreciate that some cops here are actually discussing the issues. Its a darn sight better than the attitude you get from heirarchy on making official approaches.

Just trying to draw an analogy in the dom violence if not a good one. In some ways you're right imo, in other ways not. Cos that idea you're called to account on every policing move is a generalisation... With no enforceable bill of rights, & no realistic prospects of citizens bringing civil action the toothless IPCA is all we've got to keep the force honest. The proportion of IPCA recommendations that are uptaken is not so great. Senior Police (Rob P) currently under IPCA investigation are even known to scoff in the media in response to recommendations made. This is a poor attitude toward an advice body .

Police under the current system do always get the final say on proposed culture changes. The IPCA is pro police not "independent", being largely made up of them. So it has not yet taken one of multiple formal written refusals by the Police Commiss to uptake it's recommendations up with Parliament by reporting concerns re any refusal. As was intended and allowed for in the legislation, in the expectation that Police with their own lens and natural biases might not always agree with the IPCA where doing so would be best... so necessitating adjudication by the House of Representatives.

Currently & remarkably Police have not been challenged by their IPCA buddies in having their final say on whether they'll uptake recommendations on even one occasion. So while there may be a perception liberals are pushing Police around, they've achieved zip and the doors open for a Police State if that is Collins desire.

Q - are Police hypersensitive to criticism because they get flogged excessively and thanked infrequently? When my mate walked through town in a costume uniform the other day she got a lot of abuse and heckling from thugs not realising its a costume. Could make life hard wearing blue especially as a female. Nurses get roses.

[BoristheBiter]

Is the goal apprehension or protecting life? Why did we need to go from issuing 100,000 speeding tickets to nearly 10x that yrly in a few short years - why has a 50% increase in road police hours only "altered" highway based crashes from 1.6 billion in costs to 1.6 billion in social costs of crashes by MoT methodology (Police progress report) and taken ACCs future crash claim liabilities on current account from 2Billion to 7 Billion since 2002? Why does the AA say the more tickets the more trauma...
This is turning into a donut thread... but again check the experience in Canada, there was no increase in runners when heavuily prohibitive chase policy was bought in, 100 still ran but 40000 continued stopping per year. No increased general crime, reduced road trauma. Win - win, except for those who like a good chase. The sky won't fall if some KBer or many even who might creep 10 k over the speed limit fails to stop and isn't hunted down like the dog he is to take his medicine (dead or alive). Work smart, work less cleaning up at crash scenes, less overtime could become an issue...?

Your dumber than it would appear, of course its about apprehension. why else would you chase someone?

[marty]

Q - are Police hypersensitive to criticism because they get flogged excessively and thanked infrequently? When my mate walked through town in a costume uniform the other day she got a lot of abuse and heckling from thugs not realising its a costume. Could make life hard wearing blue especially as a female. Nurses get roses.

Not hypersensitive to critisism. Just intolerant of fuckwits.

[davereid]

Is the goal apprehension or protecting life?

Why did we need to go from issuing 100,000 speeding tickets to nearly 10x that yrly in a few short years - why has a 50% increase in road police hours only "altered" highway based crashes from 1.6 billion in costs to 1.6 billion in social costs of crashes by MoT methodology (Police progress report) and taken ACCs future crash claim liabilities on current account from 2Billion to 7 Billion since 2002?

Why does the AA say the more tickets the more trauma...

Iin Canada, there was no increase in runners when heavuily prohibitive chase policy was bought in, 100 still ran but 40000 continued stopping per year.

I think we worked out years ago that heavy road policing makes very little difference in outcomes.

With the exception of reducing average speeds, which has made a difference (at least to the survivability) of a crash, most accidents are the result of a mistake - not a deliberate decision by a driver to do something risky.

Indeed, lowering average speeds may have caused some drivers to overtake when stuck behind slow traffic.

IMHO Improvements in the road toll can be attributed mostly to better accident survivability due to vehicle design. I have looked but can't find raw crash data, that would show if our accident rate has changed.

Even if we can show that accident rates are essentially unchanged, and that heavy policing has been a waste of time, the outcome for pursuits will be the same.

There will be no change to police pursuit policy, until such a time as a school bus, or something similar is wiped out.

Then then change will be driven by government, which will have little choice.

We can only hope that in NZ, we find a restrictive pursuit policy works as well as it does in Canada.

[BoristheBiter]

We can only hope that in NZ, we find a restrictive pursuit policy works as well as it does in Canada.

Well seeing that you and candor love spouting on about how good the Canadian laws are why are you still here?

Its all well and good going on about other country's but we are not Canada, we are not USA neither are we Australia so stop going on about what works in other places as we have taken on other counrty's great plans and have end in a complete waste of time.

[Patrick]

... When my mate walked through town in a costume uniform the other day she got a lot of abuse and heckling from thugs not realising its a costume.

Get real..... "costume" Uniforms and real ones are quite different, and these "thugs" know that..... hence the heckling....?

[Patrick]

....check the experience in Canada, there was no increase in runners when heavuily prohibitive chase policy was bought in, 100 still ran but 40000 continued stopping per year.

1 in 400 stops turned into runners you say? That would be far more than in NZ....