Dammit you did! beat me to the postOriginally Posted by KiWiP
Invisible up close
Dammit you did! beat me to the post
Only a biker knows why a dog sticks his head out of a car window.
Rider in training
I repeat, if it is not about the money, drop the claim for a 4% pay rise. Seriously, I'll take your whole industry more seriously.
And how about that extra 1% kiwisaver contribution your asking for. What abouting dropping that? Because what your really asking for is a 5% increase, just wording it so that it doesn't seem so big.
How can you trust someone who on one hand says it is not about the money, while at the same time striking about it? There is no credability. Like I say, the teachers union brings the whole industry into dis-respect.
Could you union wait just 2 years before asking for more money? Could they not wait till the country is in a better position? It's just the wrong time to be demanding more of everything.
How about this, negotiate for a pay rise - but don't put it into effect for 2 years. Just give the country some time.
They call me Mr Fahrenheit
Oh I'm sorry I had it all wrong before. Now I understand where the teachers are coming from.
I work really hard.
I work more than 40 hours a week.
The people I am responsible for all have my home phone number and call me whenever they feel the need.
I am measured against whether or not those people achieve the required standard or not daily.
Without exception every person for whom I take responsibility would rather be somewhere else.
My boss compelled me to undertake a training course that requires 1000 hours of work over and above my work hours, to be completed within 18 months.
My performance, and hence that of my charges is formally reviewed quarterly.
I can leave at any time I want, giving 30 days notice.
At my last performance review, my boss indicated that I might expect a good pay rise. I expect it to be considerably less than 4%
Last edited by Smifffy; 18th September 2010 at 21:24. Reason: over and "above"
Keep on chooglin'
could catch a monkey
Is that 37 or so individual "demands"?
Fucking hell - I'd like to do that and keep my job.
The only time I've had 4% (or 5%) was when I changed companies - I got 3.75% this year and nothing last year - and I count myself lucky to get the 3.75%.
Some of the "demands" I don't disagree with, TBH.
What's with this though: "Claim 8.6 Remove gender discrimination in regards to parental leave provisions "
Where is there gender discrimination with regard to this? Are fathers not being permitted to take parental leave? I thought the law was for paid parental leave (for one parent. If you guys want both parents to be paid for parental leave, you can kiss my arse)
There also seems to be a lot of management-speak in this. (Claim 1.1 for example)
Invisible up close
No you don't get it. We are not in a recession {PROOF THAT d'ath WILL IGNORE}
Jeez you're like a bulldog on a bone. The increment is to try to bring teaching up to a level that might possibly attract more graduates to a profession that is haemorrhaging talent. Todays mantra is "Recruitment and Retention" roll it over the tounge Recruit excellence... Retain excellence... (and I am with you on getting rid of the shit ones)Now is not the time for asking for more.
you sure know a lot of people. I'm starting to think you make a lot of this stuff up...I know lots of people who have effectively taken pay cuts.
ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz............. ............Just by comparison, my qualificat.......
How right you are. Your job is not hard. It might be complex, it might be challenging but it is not hard!But this is not about me, or how hard my job is.
You don't know, you haven't done it and before I started neither did I. You mentioned in an earlier post you had done some instruction. It's not the same. I worked my self up the corporate ladder to international training manager for what it's worth (which is not a lot in retrospect) but working in the school environment is something else.Just pointing out that becoming a teacher is no more difficult than many other professions.
More people you know?That is probably like the majority of professionals I know.
Yep, well I think we've all got a handle on that one!Once again, I don't see anything special about being a teacher to warrant the industrial action.
They call me Mr Fahrenheit
How would you know how hard, or not his job is?
Your rhetoric is losing more support here than it gains.
Keep on chooglin'
They call me Mr Fahrenheit
Attract graduates of what? They is busy canning teaching degree courses if ya didn't know, and increasing the pay of the incumbents won't do diddly to address that.
One minute this whole thing is about recognising the work done by teachers, the next it is about attracting new talent.
Really it is all about grabbing more moolah, so at least come up with a consistent story.
Keep on chooglin'
Rider in training
Just reading more about the money the Teachers want. So apart from the 4% base salary increase (claim 5.1), and an additional 1% kiwi saver increase I just spotted they want to increase various unit payments to $4500, and then increase the number of units being paid out by 8,500. These units are on top of their existing pay.
I assume each teacher can only get one additional unit (???), so that is 8,500 teachers getting an additional payout over and above the 5% "base" being asked.
The want teachers to get 40 (!!!) sabaticals (claim 1.3) senior managers to get 10 sabacticals (claim 1.4).
They also want duty allowances ($21/hour) and at risk allowances ($50/hour) (claim 3.3).
They want 100 days of relief teaching to allow teachers to attend Kapa Haka and Polyfest competitions (claim 4.2). What the hell?
Claim 5.3 is all about salary credits.
Claim 7.1 is about payments related to service/qualification increments. Apparently additional units dont always add as much as initial units (this is an argument about the amount of additional money they should be paid).
Claim 7.2, 7.2 and 7.3 and 7.5 are about teacher allowances.
Claim 8.2 is about allowances for helping teachers shift (for fucks sake - we help pay for them to shift?).
Claim 8.3, 8.4 and 8.5 are about more allowances.
After this I got sick of reading it. The majority of teacher claims are all to do with money. Despite what they say, it is very obvious from the arguments being put forward what their true motive is.
While they say they are only asking for 4% they are actually asking for a whole lot more money. It would be fair to say that if this goes through the *minimum* pay rise for a teacher would be 5%. Most teachers would get a far more substantial pay rise because of the increases in allowances and management units.
Invisible up close
Claims, some of these exist with different emphasis in the old contract. Some have been added as the world changes (should we all be working to Victorian work contracts? I think not)
good on yah, but please remember that a 4% increase still leaves teachers salaries trailing the rest of the world by 16%. Who do you want teaching your children? the best or the cheapest?I count myself lucky to get the 3.75%.
Great.Some of the "demands" I don't disagree with, TBH.
In many families now the woman is the primary salary earner so is it not better that she goes back to work earlier while the man can take maternity leave, looking after the baby and still maintain the same benefits that the woman would have.What's with this though: "Claim 8.6 Remove gender discrimination in regards to parental leave provisions "
The claim states "This claim is to ensure that such entitlements are also available to fathers should they be taking the primary caretaking role of the child after birth.
Some I am not in favour of but they have all gone 'through the wrangle' over many months and it is a 'collective agreement' you ain't going to please all the people all of the time. But we do live in a free democracy where all opinions are welcome. And open for free and frank discussion,
Hell Yeah, that unfortunately is how the cookie is reduced to a significantly smaller portion of its hitherto redundant parts.There also seems to be a lot of management-speak in this. (Claim 1.1 for example)
Just faidin away!
Teachers are never happy about their employment remuneration or working conditions, ever wondered why?
They insist on delegating the responsibility to some other (probably unknown to them) person and then complain about the result they get!Hello!
If teachers rate themselves so highly as individuals why do they continue to demand that they belong to an employment collective?
The only thing a collective employment agreement guarantees, is mediocrity! (measured by the lowest common denominator)
That's why they get such lousy pay, in contrast to their own individual expectations and effort!
Negotiate an individual employment contract and get the pay and conditions that you think your performance commands!
If that is just too hard and difficult for a teacher to do, then it tells me they get the deal they deserve!
The other thing that astounds me is that they pay the person to get the deals that they are always so unhappy with!gets tiresome!
If you always do what you always did, you will always get what you've always got!
If you want a different result, do something different and stop moaning about it, the rest of the world is laughing at you!
Invisible up close
Hey this is great after 3 days you've bothered to read the claims. Unfortunately you've tripped up over in your reading (comprehension)
Additional work beyond classroom teaching such as being a curriculum leader (deciding how a subject should be taught and assessed), a department leader (responsible for resource allocation), a head of department (hiring and firing etc) involve extra responsibility beyond the core task of teaching. This is what is called promotion. When one attains promotion one takes on more responsibility and is remunerated accordingly. These are the unit payments you are referring to.I just spotted they want to increase various unit payments to $4500, and then increase the number of units being paid out by 8,500. These units are on top of their existing pay.
Oh yeah and you keep on doing it...I assume
Exactly what the hell! This is nationwide, if it was individually there would be no one working!The want teachers to get 40 (!!!) sabaticals (claim 1.3) senior managers to get 10 sabacticals (claim 1.4).
They want 100 days of relief teaching to allow teachers to attend Kapa Haka and Polyfest competitions (claim 4.2). What the hell?
(Hang on here??? you did read the document and not just the headlines I posted!!!Claim 7.1 is about
7.1 relates to an inequity on the salary scale where if a teacher has been working for a number of years on a qualification grade gains a new qualification to effectively jump the up it is possible (admittedly this is in a very few cases) to jump down on the salary scale.
7.2 This one is really important. We have a massive shortage of specialist teachers in technology, science, maths and english. We recruit heavily from overseas in those areas because we don't have enough coming through our own system, and when teachers do come here where do they go to decile 8,9 10 schools. 7.2 is about creating incentives for teachers to work in the lower decile schools.
7.3 This is an encouragement for Maori immersion. quote from PPTA "We believe this may only affect up to 20 teachers."
7.4 Ah you left that one out didn't you because you didn't know what it meant haha
7.5 Ensuring that Associate teachers are paid the minimum wage ($12.75)! That which a burger flipper is entitled to but through a previous loophole has meant that associate teachers are paid $3.19/hr How is that for an incentive to enter the profession?
Yes this is standard in any profession (you'll get there one day). The provision exists already. The claim is requesting that the monetary amount is reviewed.Claim 8.2 is about allowances for helping teachers shift (for fucks sake - we help pay for them to shift?).
Claim 8.3, 8.4 and 8.5 are about more allowances.
No they're not.
Look, if you're are not willing to take on board the information presented to you (admit it, you only read the titles, I'll give you credit for that. If you did read the rationale in the full document and still believe your own diatribe then you are far thicker than I had previously given you credit for) will you please stop just hurling in your ignorant, bigoted, bile. You have an obvious issue with teachers we get that point. You keep pushing the agenda that this thing is about money when it so patently isn't (despite the government and you trying to fly that banner)
but that's not entirely true because you didn't actually read it did you?After this I got sick of reading it.
Invisible up close
BollocksTeachers are never happy
BollocksThey insist on delegating the responsibility to some other
Bollockswhy do they continue to demand that they belong to an employment collective?
BollocksThe only thing a collective employment agreement guarantees, is mediocrity!
Boll.... Oh hang on a recognition of fact!That's why they get such lousy pay
Yeah well as we are effectively civil servants we don't have that option.Negotiate an individual employment contract
Quite possibly but this is one of the reasons we are in a union (note not all teachers are in the PPTA). There is no expectation of a teacher to be a negotiator of such skills to get their rightful dues. And if a teacher is unhappy with their lot at one school they can't just move to another because their lot there is the same. They could go to the private sector where the salary is better but do you really want that?If that is just too hard and difficult for a teacher to do, then it tells me they get the deal they deserve!
What's the alternative 16,000 separate interviews to assess pay and conditions on an annual basis? I don't think soThe other thing that astounds me is that they pay the person to get the deals that they are always so unhappy with!
True and that is one of the issues, teachers are today doing far more than they ever have done. There is demand to have continual assessment through all streams of teaching. In the UK they were introducing national reading standards for 5 year olds before a new government and good sense took hold and these plans were scrapped. We are now assessing the hell out of the kids to what end? As an old saying from my home goes "the pig doesn't get fatter the more you weigh it" But this is another issue.If you always do what you always did, you will always get what you've always got
Marquis
Yes but if you don't weight your pigs in the first place how can you tell their weight? By guessing?
Just faidin away!
I rest my case!
There are none so blind as those who will not see!
Rider in training
I think you have nicely summarised your position. Face it, the teachers do not have tax payer support - and you are negotiating with the tax payers.
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