Revolting teachers!

[MisterD]

Not that easy to do. What defines "performance"? As I said earlier, you can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear. It is not realistic to expect every kid to achieve the same level of competence in anything - whether it be intellectual or physical.

I've been hearing this argument for about thirty years. Mum was a maths teacher, Dad an HR Director...

How hard can it really be to measure the progress of a group of kids over a school year? I reckon it's pretty easy because the unions don't offer an argument that it's difficult - they argue that it sets teacher versus teacher in some kind of death match, and forces them to work against one another, when they should be working together! Complete bollocks, doesn't happen between sales reps in the same company, won't happen between teachers.

[p.dath]

Ok, so you'd rather avoid answering the question, I can see why . Perhaps the govt shoulda looked after the teachers when the good times rolled... then they wouldn't have to ask AGAIN!

Ok directly - I value MP's and Back Benchers more than teachers.

Yeah .. doesn't it piss you off when no-one values our profession - but everybody expects us to deliver results ...

You earn respect - not demand it. Something it seems teachers have missed.

People value professions by what they add. If teachers don't feel respected then perhaps they should take a closer look at themselves.

[Squiggles]

Seems many think along these lines

[KiWiP]

Ok directly - I value MP's and Back Benchers more than teachers.

It would appear you value anyone above teachers (something to do with your ex I'm thinking) I am concerned that you value the likes of David Garrett, Winston Peters, Richard Nixon, Berlusconi, Hitler (politicians) of whom you know their transgressions over me (teacher) who you don't (2 speeding tickets over 30 years of driving - now you do)
If you have some personal grudge against teachers because of something that has happened get therapy or let it go. If it's politically motivated please go back to my earlier post and read it "IT'S NOT ABOUT THE MONEY" We're not winging about our lot, The comparison to the police and nurses 'wage' claim was raised by the government. My post was intended to put their claims in context.

You earn respect - not demand it. Something it seems teachers have missed.

Very true, in my case having left school with nothing (my fault not my teachers) I worked my way up from the factory floor to a reasonable management position and enough money to pay my way through university and teacher training college. I strive on a daily basis to ensure all pupils in my care are aware that if they make the wrong choices life is hard, the right choices life is much more satisfying (though not necessarily easy). I follow the national curriculum and prepare them for NCEA exams that give them more choice in life. I engage them in discussions geared towards an awareness of the world at large beyond the school doors. I delight in hearing of their successes after school and commiserate and mentor where there are dissapointments. If you're talking about earning your respect I obviously don't have it and quite frankly I don't want it. If I am respected by narrow minded, ignorant, narcissists then I'll know I've 'missed' something. I'll content myself with the respect I have earned from my pupils and their parents while teaching.

People value professions by what they add. If teachers don't feel respected then perhaps they should take a closer look at themselves.

Ah one thing we agree on. Give me two students at the beginning of the year I'll educate one and not the other then measure what has been added at the end of the year. We do take a closer look at ourselves, every test, assessment, exam result presents our triumphs and failures. We adjust, refine, develop and grow our output and the final exam results rise year on year. There are very few industries/companies that engage in such introspection.

Teaching like any profession has its fair share of brilliance through to rubbish with the a majority in between striving to do the best they can. We know we're not perfect but to do the best we can we do need the support of everyone outside the school gates. If you think we are rubbish then please be creative and proactive in change. Support reforms that are designed to attract more and better quality graduates (preferably with some work experience). Then you can move on to whine about some other area of your less than perfect world.

[Forest]

My mother was a teacher for 20 years, then she did a Master's degree in Educational Administration and become a senior ERO officer before retiring.

According to her, most teachers are competent professionals who are worth every penny that they're paid. The problem is that there is a significant number of teachers who simply aren't very good.

But you'll never hear unions like the NZEI acknowledge this. They're very careful to present 'teachers' as an homogeneous group, and they vociferously oppose any changes that would allow teachers to be individually ranked. This is why they oppose the introduction of National standards so strongly - they fear it will create a de facto ranking table of teacher performance.

It's a shame really. The unions argue that they're motivated to achieve the best possible educational outcome, but by allowing bad teachers to remain in the system they are actually causing far more damage.

[Mully]

We're not winging about our lot

What? That's not what the chanting mass outside my work indicated the other afternoon.

Teaching like any profession has its fair share of brilliance through to rubbish with the a majority in between striving to do the best they can.

OK, so you're in the system. How do "we" (as a country) reward the best, assist the "strivers" to be better, and remove the rubbish?

Across the board increases don't seem fair to me - to anyone, really. It's an insult to the best teachers that they get the same as the rubbish teachers, and not an indication to the rubbish that they need to improve.

[PrincessBandit]

My mother was a teacher for 20 years, then she did a Master's degree in Educational Administration and become a senior ERO officer before retiring.

According to her, most teachers are competent professionals who are worth every penny that they're paid. The problem is that there is a significant number of teachers who simply aren't very good.

But you'll never hear unions like the NZEI acknowledge this. They're very careful to present 'teachers' as an homogeneous group, and they vociferously oppose any changes that would allow teachers to be individually ranked. This is why they oppose the introduction of National standards so strongly - they fear it will create a de facto ranking table of teacher performance.

It's a shame really. The unions argue that they're motivated to achieve the best possible educational outcome, but by allowing bad teachers to remain in the system they are actually causing far more damage.

I think this man is onto something!

But even a wonderful teacher who is innovative, caring, enthusiastic and inspiring will still not reach some determined non-achievers.

[p.dath]

It would appear you value anyone above teachers (something to do with your ex I'm thinking) I am concerned that you value the likes of David Garrett, Winston Peters, Richard Nixon, Berlusconi, Hitler (politicians) of whom you know their transgressions over me (teacher) who you don't (2 speeding tickets over 30 years of driving - now you do)

Please, lets not start that game. There are plenty of teachers who have been caught red handed. Has been a little while since we've had a child molestation case by a teacher though.

Just because a small number of people in a profession do something bad does not devalue the whole profession.

If you have some personal grudge against teachers because of something that has happened get therapy or let it go. If it's politically motivated please go back to my earlier post and read it "IT'S NOT ABOUT THE MONEY" We're not winging about our lot, The comparison to the police and nurses 'wage' claim was raised by the government. My post was intended to put their claims in context.

I'm sick of every few years having teachers strike and demand more money. Constantly. Perhaps they could join the real world, and realise that pay rises are not an automatic entitlement, and that throwing the toys out of the cot and striking everytime they don't get what they want is in fact not normal working practice.

Lets put your test to the claim - its not about the money. I want the union to drop their demand for more money. Go on, do it. Prove it's not about the money by stopping demands for the money.

Won't happen.

Very true, in my case having left school with nothing (my fault not my teachers) I worked my way up from the factory floor to a reasonable management position and enough money to pay my way through university and teacher training college. I strive on a daily basis to ensure all pupils in my care are aware that if they make the wrong choices life is hard, the right choices life is much more satisfying (though not necessarily easy). I follow the national curriculum and prepare them for NCEA exams that give them more choice in life. I engage them in discussions geared towards an awareness of the world at large beyond the school doors. I delight in hearing of their successes after school and commiserate and mentor where there are dissapointments. If you're talking about earning your respect I obviously don't have it and quite frankly I don't want it. If I am respected by narrow minded, ignorant, narcissists then I'll know I've 'missed' something. I'll content myself with the respect I have earned from my pupils and their parents while teaching.

Your just talking about a normal days work that every other worker has to do. I don't hear about you doing anything particularly special compared to anyone else to suggest Teachers should be getting a pay rise in a recession - when a lot of other people just hope to have a job. It's great you find some enjoyment doing your job. Pretty standard really for any job.

Teaching like any profession has its fair share of brilliance through to rubbish with the a majority in between striving to do the best they can. We know we're not perfect but to do the best we can we do need the support of everyone outside the school gates.

Why do you need the support of everyone outside the school gates? Does the local plumber and electrician need this "special support"? Nope. They just get on with their job.

Something teachers should consider doing.

There is nothing special about being a teacher that demands respect or gives teachers any special authority. We all have an inportant part to play in society. I very much get the impression teachers have a very inflated view of their importance in life.

[KiWiP]

Please, lets not start that game.

OK

There are plenty of teachers who have been caught red handed. Has been a little while since we've had a child molestation case by a teacher though.

Let's throw something irrelevant and inflammatory into the discussion.
There are exceptional network engineers on this site and some of them may fiddle with kids but there's been no evidence for sometime that they have.

I'm sick of every few years having teachers strike and demand more money. Constantly.

few=3, many=9 which is when the last industrial action needed to be taken. From there a collective agreement was settled by both parties. This has been negotiated every 3 years. A negotiation of this type for one of the largest employee sectors in the country is never going to be straight forward. Entering a negotiation is not whining, bitching or crying like spoilt brats. In this round the government has written off many of the terms of previous contracts and on many occasions refused to sit around the table and negotiate. The day of strike was because the government is refusing to negotiate.

Lets put your test to the claim - its not about the money.

Already done. It's in the link {THE LINK IS HERE}I provided earlier but you won't go there will you because you are secure in your beliefs and will not change them. You will not shut up harping on at the injustice you see in a body of professionals protesting about the damage that is being done to the recruitment and retention of a highly trained body of people (and please don't reply with "yes but many people are highly trained whahwhahwhah" it gets very wearing) who are backbone to the future successes of this great country. You cannot have it both ways employ anybody on the cheap and expect the highest quality.

Your (sic) just talking about a normal days work

No I'm not I have worked in many sectors, both manual and cerebral and teaching is the most challenging thing I have ever done. But it's great and job satisfaction is not standard for any job. As you said in an earlier post you know loads of people who would be happy of any job, especially with a guaranteed income and long holidays. Great tell them to train as a teacher and they're in. Or tell them to train as a network engineer apparently it's great and I understand they're not too picky who they employ (What I mean is it doesn't matter if you have a criminal conviction whereas you can't be a teacher if you do)

Why do you need the support of everyone outside the school gates?

Because people like you seek to undermine the good work that teachers do with your negative, destructive stance.

... just get on with their job. Something teachers should consider doing.

That's just it we do. What did we do when we got home on strike day? marking, planning, rewriting lesson plans to catch up what the students had lost out on. We maybe entering an unwelcome period of industrial upset but whatever the outcome we are still looking out for the pupils in our charge.

[p.dath]

Already done. It's in the link {THE LINK IS HERE}I provided earlier but you won't go there will you because you are secure in your beliefs and will not change them.

I'll come back later on the rest, but I read the PDF. Claim 5.1 is seeking a 4% rise in the base scale?

Sounds like your asking for a pay rise to me.

It also says less that half of secondary school teachers earn more than $69k. Seriously. That's a lot of cash! And the teachers are still complaining? And in a recession.

Please keep talking. The more you speak the more the public will revolt against the teachers unions demands. The more I read the less I respect the organisation.

Talk about raping the nation.

[PrincessBandit]

Talk about raping the nation.

Pity you have to be so inflammatory with that comment. I normally respect (or at least not pass judgement on) the things you say.

Sad choice of words from you.

[Smifffy]

I'll come back later on the rest, but I read the PDF. Claim 5.1 is seeking a 4% rise in the base scale?

Sounds like your asking for a pay rise to me.

It also says less that half of secondary school teachers earn more than $69k. Seriously. That's a lot of cash! And the teachers are still complaining? And in a recession.

Please keep talking. The more you speak the more the public will revolt against the teachers unions demands. The more I read the less I respect the organisation.

Talk about raping the nation.

#
You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to p.dath again.

Oh 2 in a row in the same thread!!

[Smifffy]

I deserve a pay rise too.

No, really I do.

My Boss thinks I should count myself lucky I have a job earning what I am.

He also realises that if he isn't competitive with regard to the current market for my albeit limited skill set, then he may need to find a replacement.

the challenge for both he and I is to understand the market.

[p.dath]

Let's throw something irrelevant and inflammatory into the discussion.

I'm glad you got my point. Ditto with politicians.

few=3, many=9 which is when the last industrial action needed to be taken. From there a collective agreement was settled by both parties. This has been negotiated every 3 years. A negotiation of this type for one of the largest employee sectors in the country is never going to be straight forward. Entering a negotiation is not whining, bitching or crying like spoilt brats. In this round the government has written off many of the terms of previous contracts and on many occasions refused to sit around the table and negotiate. The day of strike was because the government is refusing to negotiate.

You don't get it. It's a recession. Now is not the time for asking for more. I know lots of people who have effectively taken pay cuts. The tax payers of NZ - which is who you are negotiating with - have less to negotiate with.

What I mean is it doesn't matter if you have a criminal conviction whereas you can't be a teacher if you do)

Just by comparison, my qualifications last for two years and I have to re-sit them every 24 months or loose them. For the kind of work I do I have to cleared by the SIS. I can't do my job with a criminal conviction. Hell even a DUI is enough for me to loose my job. And they do a complete security re-check every 5 years.

But this is not about me, or how hard my job is. Just pointing out that becoming a teacher is no more difficult than many other professions. Lot of jobs, including teachers, are subject to criminal history checks.

Because people like you seek to undermine the good work that teachers do with your negative, destructive stance.

Touche, the teachers are doing that very well themselves. They are even doing a great job publising it.

That's just it we do. What did we do when we got home on strike day? marking, planning, rewriting lesson plans to catch up what the students had lost out on. We maybe entering an unwelcome period of industrial upset but whatever the outcome we are still looking out for the pupils in our charge.

That is probably like the majority of professionals I know. There job doesn't end at 5pm. Working at home and putting in extra hours is expected. It's all part of the deal. It's just what you have to do for your job.

Once again, I don't see anything special about being a teacher to warrant the industrial action.

[KiWiP]

I'll come back later on the rest,

No you won't and you know it

but I read the PDF. Claim 5.1 is seeking a 4% rise in the base scale?

yes you did, well done, go to the top of the class.

Relish the moment...

...and now go back to the bottom

It's not what you know that's important here it's what what you don't.
I've paraphrased for the hard of thinking (that's you D'Ath)...
He is right though, tucked right in the middle of all these nasty claims is a claim for 4% YES WE KNOW THIS! AND ITS NOT ABOUT THE MONEY!!!

You might want to look at a few of the claims for investement and encouragement of managers up through the system. My god Marx is rotating in the tub. Or some relating to health and safety, or provision of standard equipment (e.g. wet weather gear or laptops) But please, please, please, take on board that these claims are all founded on the sole purpose of ensuring that the students in our care get the best education that a 1st world 21st century nation should provide.

The Claims
1 Professional support for teachers
Claim 1.1 Define principles of best practice regarding professional learning and development (PLD) and outline processes and consultation for establishing when, what and how PLD occurs in schools and link to other professional development clauses in STCA
Claim 1.2 Re-establish the senior/specialist subject advisors (SSAs)
Claim 1.3 Increase sabbaticals for teachers by 40
Claim 1.4 Introduce 10 sabbaticals specifically for senior managers
2 Mentoring for teachers
Claim 2.1 Establish a work group on mentoring for teachers
Claim 2.2 Professional support /supervision/ mentoring for senior managers and leaders
Claim 2.3 Beginning teacher support: HOD time allowance is extended to support PRT’s in their second year
3 Teacher and student learning conditions
Claim 3.1 Class size:
- Average class size to be no more than 26
- Maximum for a class to be 30 students except for classes where there are hazardous processes, equipment and/or materials then they will be no more than 24
Claim 3.2 Further clarification of non-contact:
Claim 3.3 Duty Clauses:
- Indentify and limit teachers’ duty in at-risk areas and times
- Provide equipment for duty
4 Targeted support for Maori and Pasifika students
i. Workload and stress associated with preparing students for Polyfest and Kapa Haka each year
Claim 4.1 Target some of the extra units and MMAs specifically for teachers who work with students preparing them for Kapa Haka and Polyfest.
Claim 4.2 Provide 100 days of relief teaching so teachers can attend with their students: for Kapa Haka competitions (70 days pa) and for Polyfest (30 days pa).
5 Remuneration – base rates
HERE IT IS
Claim 5.1 Base scale increase of 4% for 1 year term to Jun 2011
Claim 5.2 An additional 1% employer contribution to Kiwisaver
Claim 5.3 Salary credits to be counted when employed as a trained teacher and the ‘appropriate’ qualification from when they may be counted is that which is applicable to that vocation – including when it is L4.
6 Career pathways for teachers – leadership and management in secondary schools
Claim 6 Improve payments for management and leadership within schools:

7 Targeted payments
Claim 7.1 Service / Qualification increment - remove the unit restriction and insert that the qualification must be a minimum of L5 on the NQF
Claim 7.2 High priority teacher supply allowance: extend it to all decile 1 and 2 schools,
Claim 7.3 Extend the MITA (Maori Immersion Teachers allowance) to RTLB Maori
Claim 7.4 Bring the voluntary bonding scheme into the STCA, and extend it.
Claim 7.5: Increase the associate teacher allowance to $12.75 (the minimum wage)
8 Fairness and equity claims
Claim 8 .1 That laptops and immunisation are fully funded
Claim 8.2 That transfers and removals costs are reviewed and limits updated
Claim 8 .3 That the mileage allowance is aligned with IRD
Claim 8.4 Fully pro-rate non-contact for part time teachers
Claim 8.5 Find ways to addressing domestic/sick leave inequities
Claim 8.6 Remove gender discrimination in regards to parental leave provisions
9 Health and Safety improvements
Claim 9.1 Ensure time and training is available for H&S representative
10 New employment benefits
Claim 10.1 Enable an easier change from full time to part time teaching
Claim 10.2 Introduce a 4 for 5 year voluntary refreshment scheme
11 Clarification and enabling claims
11.1 Beginning teacher time allowance 3.8.1 and 3.8.2
11.2 Beginning teacher time allowance 3.8.3
11.3 Overseas teacher time allowance 3.8C
11.4 Service Qualification Increment 4.9.4(a)
11.5 Specialist Classroom Teacher Guidelines 4.14
11.6 G categories 4.1 and 4.2.1
11.7 Employment Relations Education Leave 10.5