Invite - 2nd protest against police pursuits today

[munster]

there should be none of this shameful pursuing of youths for 200 km over a stolen hunk of metal which risks 100's of lives

Don't agree with this. Some of us work bloody long & hard to purchase that hunk of metal. Definitely not shameful in the least pursuing car thieves.

Allow ramming again to wind up necessary chases fast.

Best thing you've said this entire thread.

[marty]

. Allow ramming again to wind up necessary chases fast.

I've deleted the rest of it to save bandwidth, but this comment is fucking ridiculous (as are many other above it). Don't even think about suggesting it unless it's on the Auckland motorway with no ditches/powerpoles/opposing traffic, as you'd be the first to call for manslaughter charges if a cop rammed a suspect (for whatever offence - from speeding to murder suspect), and that car spun out and killed an innocent. The PIT manouver is dangerous given perfect conditions and is best used on high c of g vehicles travelling at high speed (read - most SUV's in the USA). I have been both passenger (suspect) and driver (law enforcment) during a PIT - it is NOT for the faint hearted at 100mph.

You are WAY out of your depth.

[BoristheBiter]

You are WAY out of your depth.

Hasn't stopped candor from talking crap this far.

[scumdog]

5. For serious violent offenders roads can be closed off – there should be none of this shameful pursuing of youths for 200 km over a stolen hunk of metal which risks 100's of lives. Allow ramming again to wind up necessary chases fast.

Ah, how about the effwit stopping before doing the 200km?

And closing roads off? - where are all the cops going to appear from to do that? - it's not like NZ has only freeways with a limited amount of off-ramps.

And one time they blocked the road completelyy the cretin who was driving the car that wouldn't stop crashed into the very visible road-block (a fire engine from memory) and killed all involved.

So the bleeding heart Pollyannas of the world now won't let the road be blocked completely "Must leave an escape route" WTF?? Why bother 'blocking' the road in that case? (Except maybe to force numbnuts driver to drive over roadspikes).

Ramming? somebody else has already explained the risks in doing that.

I think you should be get familiar with the constraints already in place re pursuits.

[candor]

Okay.. was just throwing out ideas based on foreign approaches. Wasn't aware of issues with ramming here and thought it used to be used. Was that in NZ that someone hit a fire engine!!!! In a built up area or on highway? As for the current useless policy I am aware of it, and it's name that deliberately makes it hard to find (a closely related policy of one Oz state is secret).
I think it is Howard Broad who should be getting grilled over exactly why he objects so strenuously to having a Police chase policy that as per IPCA recommendations
1) places public safety first
2) disallows chases based only on suspicion ie because they ran you chase.
Neither of these features, recommended for change after a good study by Justice Goddard last year, are characteristic of what is today considered best practice. I'd like an explanation why Howard thinks I or my family should be jeopardised because some twerp ran over usually nothing or nothing much - maybe a joint in his pocket. Not nice.
Why does Howie think Police are not accountable to it's advisors for doing things the recognised best way when they expect us to abide by law.
How much resourcing would it take to provide techy alternatives to kneejerk chases?
Any idea of dollar values - and isn't ANPR being tested somewhere I recall Dave Cliff saying.

[scumdog]

Was that in NZ that someone hit a fire engine!!!! In a built up area or on highway? .

It was in NZ and on the open road with TONS of visibility, 'somewhere' in the North Island..

[marty]

Okay.. was just throwing out ideas based on foreign approaches. Wasn't aware of issues with ramming here and thought it used to be used. Was that in NZ that someone hit a fire engine!!!! In a built up area or on highway? As for the current useless policy I am aware of it, and it's name that deliberately makes it hard to find (a closely related policy of one Oz state is secret).
I think it is Howard Broad who should be getting grilled over exactly why he objects so strenuously to having a Police chase policy that as per IPCA recommendations
1) places public safety first
2) disallows chases based only on suspicion ie because they ran you chase.
Neither of these features, recommended for change after a good study by Justice Goddard last year, are characteristic of what is today considered best practice. I'd like an explanation why Howard thinks I or my family should be jeopardised because some twerp ran over usually nothing or nothing much - maybe a joint in his pocket. Not nice.
Why does Howie think Police are not accountable to it's advisors for doing things the recognised best way when they expect us to abide by law.
How much resourcing would it take to provide techy alternatives to kneejerk chases?
Any idea of dollar values - and isn't ANPR being tested somewhere I recall Dave Cliff saying.

So let's get this straight. You are holding yourself out to question the current state, and be a spokesman for it, yet you actually have no credible options to present? You can't even tell us what the 'recognised best way' is, apart from 1 state in USA (hardly a majority - and they are looking at expanding the reasons for pursuit anyway) and some trials in Victoria? None of your comments yet have even hinted at dealing with this at the CORE issue. I don't even think you know what it is.

[Berries]

.......and isn't ANPR being tested somewhere......

According to the ODT the Dunedin CBD cameras will have ANPR capability when they get commissioned soon. Be interesting to see whether they use it or not.

[Wannabiker]

The fire engine case was about 1988. The chase ended just south of Turangi. Long distance high speed chase (in a Mk3 Cortina if my memory serves me correctly). Driven into the fire engine at high speed (which isnt much in a cortina)

The fire engine belonged to NZ Army and was a Waiouru based appliance. It was my first ever job as a mechanic in the Army to complete the repairs when it came back from the panelbeaters.

Followed closely after the release of the movie "cannonball run"....

[candor]

What's not credible about 2/3 and 4 in post 195

The core problem is that policy isn't best for road safety. What do you say is the "recognised best way" that you seem to be saying I've not mentioned - or Prof Geoff Alpert or the IPCA (given I agree with and only really restate their views). And what do you see as the core issue? You're losing me. If it is that people run go on then put forth a policy that would stop that cos I'm not aware of one. Something you put in the water? As Alpert says thats not really controllable - what is is minimising risks from that point on. Dream a dream - what's the ideal set up for cops.

[BoristheBiter]

What's not credible about 2/3 and 4 in post 195

The core problem is that policy isn't best for road safety. What do you say is the "recognised best way" that you seem to be saying I've not mentioned - or Prof Geoff Alpert or the IPCA (given I agree with and only really restate their views). And what do you see as the core issue? You're losing me. If it is that people run go on then put forth a policy that would stop that cos I'm not aware of one. Something you put in the water? As Alpert says thats not really controllable - what is is minimising risks from that point on. Dream a dream - what's the ideal set up for cops.

The core issue is people do not stop then run from the police and crash into others, if this is not so then what have you been ranting about or have you allready forgotten?


It all comes down to the circumstance surrounding the reson to pull the vehicle over.

Just think about it, if the cops can't chase who will stop?

[scumdog]

Just think about it, if the cops can't chase who will stop?

Even the bozos and drongos will figure out they're home free if the cops can't chase them, hell, as it is the nongs have grabbed hold of this urban myth that "if you go over 150kph the cops have got to call off the chase" as is it were gospel.

And we have to share the roads with people of that mentality, sad, bloody sad...

[marty]

IMHO the core issue is the lack of respect of oneself, of others, and of doing the right thing. No amount of legislation is going to change that. In the absence of a stratopheric change in attitude, the only thing that will stop these clowns running and killing is an absolute fear of consequence. Problem is, the consequence at the moment seems to be death, so I'm not sure what else they would be scared of. I don't have the answer, but it probably lies around:

Obtaining a licence is an absolute privelege, not a right.
Professional driver instruction including high speed, skid training, evasive action, close-contact, motorway, rural and city driving.
Minimum car standards.
Horsepower limits based on age.
Compulsory insurance
Zero-alcohol limits for under 25.
Long-term loss of licence upon conviction, with re-sit of all stages before relicencing.
Impound/confiscation of vehicle regardless of owner/driver relationship.
Professionally trained Police pursuit drivers, with high-powered performance-based vehicles.

I could go on, but my sphere of concern has shifted, so I'll leave it at that.

[candor]

Yep agreed there's a lot of bad context here that's not aggravating matters over in the less feral countries... but despite that this debate long past went circular I have to again answer Boris and Scumdogs fears of complete civil disobedience breaking loose.

The facts proven elsewhere is that more restrictive policy doesn't add more morons or dickheads - god only blessed us with a finite number.
Plenty of tickets still get issued to the good people who will be more careful for a while as a result, and those who'd take no notice anyway just are no longer chased in to being much more than the minor risk that they previously posed.
It all comes down to what is the object of the game
- the choice seems to be
a) CAPTURE ALL NONGS NOW - do your darnedest to catch every mark and end up with far more crashes than adopting a Toaist "go with the flow" stance would have
b) CAPTURE MOST MARKS but apply a bit of common sense and pick the battles with policy discouraging trivial matter pursuits, but enabling later imposition of sanctions on most NONGS- well covered as do-able IN STEP BY STEP INSTRUCTIONS from Alpert in the Herald link, so that road safety has primacy every minute of the shift. See bit about "Rebuttal of presumption"

Contrary to popular belief society doesn't crumble when Police let that portion of small fry who're non compliant go. Not doing so has aided demises of 10 innocent people out of the 16 to perish because nongs zoomed off in the last 12mths. So no its not the culprit who wears it here and getting just desserts - fate or perhaps steering to just save themselves has them protected.
The Heralds feature went through each case, but it was a table and not included in the web based article just print version.

When 4% of the toll in a high toll land is chase related (double the other top rating chase death countries) something's up, and that needs a rethink, unless we're to be the worlds road safety freakshow ongoing - a cautionary tale in some future safety science textbooks. Tho it hardly sems feasible, it'll only get worse if NZ refuses to adopt good policy, as more crowded roads are predicted over the next decade and a youth explosion.

[BoristheBiter]

Yep agreed there's a lot of bad context here that's not aggravating matters over in the less feral countries... but despite that this debate long past went circular I have to again answer Boris and Scumdogs fears of complete civil disobedience breaking loose.

The facts proven elsewhere is that more restrictive policy doesn't add more morons or dickheads - god only blessed us with a finite number.
Plenty of tickets still get issued to the good people who will be more careful for a while as a result, and those who'd take no notice anyway just are no longer chased in to being much more than the minor risk that they previously posed.
It all comes down to what is the object of the game
- the choice seems to be
a) CAPTURE ALL NONGS NOW - do your darnedest to catch every mark and end up with far more crashes than adopting a Toaist "go with the flow" stance would have
b) CAPTURE MOST MARKS but apply a bit of common sense and pick the battles with policy discouraging trivial matter pursuits, but enabling later imposition of sanctions on most NONGS- well covered as do-able IN STEP BY STEP INSTRUCTIONS from Alpert in the Herald link, so that road safety has primacy every minute of the shift. See bit about "Rebuttal of presumption"

Contrary to popular belief society doesn't crumble when Police let that portion of small fry who're non compliant go. Not doing so has aided demises of 10 innocent people out of the 16 to perish because nongs zoomed off in the last 12mths. So no its not the culprit who wears it here and getting just desserts - fate or perhaps steering to just save themselves has them protected.
The Heralds feature went through each case, but it was a table and not included in the web based article just print version.

When 4% of the toll in a high toll land is chase related (double the other top rating chase death countries) something's up, and that needs a rethink, unless we're to be the worlds road safety freakshow ongoing - a cautionary tale in some future safety science textbooks. Tho it hardly sems feasible, it'll only get worse if NZ refuses to adopt good policy, as more crowded roads are predicted over the next decade and a youth explosion.

What about this?

http://www.stuff.co.nz/the-press/new...at-both-killed

Where does this fit into your graphs and charts?
Why is it that people like you can't see what the real issue's are? or feel the need to blame someone/thing else for the problem.
There are stupid drivers/riders on the road. everyone knows now bad it has become, and still you sit there behind your computer and blame the police and there policy's for the reason.

And if we do become "road safety freakshow" then we can sell the show back to the US and make them watch our shit drivers.