Cyclist accidents v motorcycle accidents

[MSTRS:Me]

Don't polarize people into one group only. It's rare for anyone to be exclusively a cyclist, exclusively a motorcycle rider, exclusively a pedestrian, exclusively any sort of road user.

Pah! ACC started it...

Maybe it's time to just accept that roads are just places where risk happens, and as a result, shit happens. If you're prepared to take the risk, be prepared to deal with the shit that comes your way.

I see you HAVE been paying attention in class...

[shrub]

Don't accept the status quo.

You're right, you're not very PC. That crash (and I can still remember reading about it) was due to appalling behaviour by another road user, and I don't think it's OK for us to suck it up just because Nigel Noob came into a corner overcooked on his GN250 and stomped on the back brake or Peter Powerranger bought a Gixxer 1000 to park by his jet ski and SUV, then wiped out trying to impress everyone on the Akaroa GP.

If cyclists can demand changes when they get killed, why can't we? Hell, some of them are complete and utter idiots and damn near deserve to get killed, but that doesn't stop the cycling bodies kicking up a stink about their safety.

[cheshirecat]

hell, at the end of the day we pay about $10.00 a week rego - I can afford that easily and while I'm not that happy about it, the reason I'm not happy is that I get special treatment. If I get good cover and if my safety as a road user is taken seroiously I'm quite happy to pay that and more. What is the issue is that we're treated like naughty children and second class road users whereas cyclists and their concerns are taken seriously. Maybe if we were a little less whimpy and PC about our issues and didn't spend all our time apologising?

Plus 1 ........

[Genestho]

You're right, you're not very PC. That crash (and I can still remember reading about it) was due to appalling behaviour by another road user, and I don't think it's OK for us to suck it up just because Nigel Noob came into a corner overcooked on his GN250 and stomped on the back brake or Peter Powerranger bought a Gixxer 1000 to park by his jet ski and SUV, then wiped out trying to impress everyone on the Akaroa GP.

If cyclists can demand changes when they get killed, why can't we? Hell, some of them are complete and utter idiots and damn near deserve to get killed, but that doesn't stop the cycling bodies kicking up a stink about their safety.

I don't understand why it is that changes can be proposed in support of cyclists and not Motorcyclists in the same circumstances.
I actually can't recall a week of 5 motorcyclists being killed by other users, if that were the case then there'd be a fairly powerful reason to stomp.

For sure we need our lobby groups to speakup whenever there is a crash involving other users and smack the issue right into touch, the otherside is, we also need to be involved in Govt activities to lead the changes.

As a collective community we need to find that balance where we stand up for ourselves and what we do, but accept a certain amount of responsibility.

[cheshirecat]

Where are some good cyle forums we can join in on. I mean we have similar issues. Done a quick google nothing like KB or is that a contradiction of terms.

[neels]

And have learned that cycling is not as much pain as cyclists make it out to be....most drivers are corteous even if I undertake them all the way to the front on the red lights.
Nobody is shouting at me, buses give me lots of room and iam sure iam pretty annoying by blocking whole bus lane....therefore iam not sure what are all the cyclists crying about!

The only annoying thing are people opening their car doors into the road without checking mirrors but in those 4 weeks i have LEARNED that thats the way it is and I just pay attention for it when i see someone sitting in a car....

I used to have a roadie that I used for commuting to work and only ever had 3 incidents, and all on the same day, but usually no dramas with traffic at all. I also went out for some organised bunch rides and was more scared of the retarded shit the other cyclists were doing than the traffic on the road, in the end I sold the thing and built the spare mtb up with slicks for commuting so at least I don't look like one of those road cyclist wankers that people love to hate.

[shrub]

I don't understand why it is that changes can be proposed in support of cyclists and not Motorcyclists in the same circumstances.
I actually can't recall a week of 5 motorcyclists being killed by other users, if that were the case then there'd be a fairly powerful reason to stomp.

For sure we need our lobby groups to speakup whenever there is a crash involving other users and smack the issue right into touch, the otherside is, we also need to be involved in Govt activities to lead the changes.

As a collective community we need to find that balance where we stand up for ourselves, but accept a certain amount of responsibility.

That's exactly my point. many of the changes that cyclists are demanding either work for us or can be adapted to work for us. They face a great many of the same risks we do, so why don't we work with them?

And yes, of course we need to accept personal responsibility, but I think the overwhelming majority of serious riders (as opposed to commuters) take their own safety very, very seriously indeed and while Katman et al make a lot of sense, they're preaching to the choir - if there is anything I can do to improve my odds of survival, I do it. I think personal responsibility is pretty much a self policing thing - if you don't do it you crash.

But I believe we are in partnership as road users: we are in partnership with the authorities that make and enforce the rules; the other road users and the people who design and maintain our roads. Expecting one party (us) to do everything and sucking up bad driving, poor roads and inappropriate policing is not only unfair, it's futile.

[Katman]

I think personal responsibility is pretty much a self policing thing - if you don't do it you crash.

Then there must be a lot of motorcyclists out there not taking 'personal responsibility'.

Get my point?

[shrub]

Then there must be a lot of motorcyclists out there not taking 'personal responsibility'.

Get my point?

I know this is a major stretch for you my friend, but have you considered the possibility that quite a lot of crashes are not the fault of the motorcyclist? And that many of them are unavoidable?

Radical thinking I know, but sometimes it's a good idea to step outside of our comfort zone and explore wild and crazy ideas. That's how come Hans Muth came up with the idea of the Katana and essentially invented modern sports bikes.

[MSTRS:Me]

The message I'm getting is that EVERY road user needs to lift their game.
We all have responsibilities for ourselves and others, and to expect the vulnerable to assume more responsibility, without reciprocation from the rest, is never going to achieve much.

[shrub]

the message i'm getting is that every road user needs to lift their game.
We all have responsibilities for ourselves and others, and to expect the vulnerable to assume more responsibility, without reciprocation from the rest, is never going to achieve much.

fanfuckingtastic!

[Genestho]

There's some good things coming in terms of Motorcycling, I think Squiggles has put a post up, for every proposal tabled 'today' expect it takes a long time to come through to legislation, so these were tabled over a year ago, the more that support or debate these proposals through the proper channels the better.

This could be the last time, for sometime that extensive changes come through as it's part of the 10 year strategy.

There are alot of things we can do as a community for ourselves, and I think we'd have support in doing these things by guaging opinions as I like to do.

But, I would like to see our lobby groups stand up in support of us regularly when it's needed in the media, be the watchdogs of all things Motorcycling..because they are the voice.

[phill-k]

I know this is a major stretch for you my friend, but have you considered the possibility that quite a lot of crashes are not the fault of the motorcyclist? And that many of them are unavoidable?

Radical thinking I know, but sometimes it's a good idea to step outside of our comfort zone and explore wild and crazy ideas. That's how come Hans Muth came up with the idea of the Katana and essentially invented modern sports bikes.

I then have to ask have you stepped beyond your zone and considered that whilst some of the "not a fault crashes" you refer to if the victim was perhaps more aware - taking personal responsibility - then they may have been able to avoid said crash or minimise the outcome.

for instance travelling at X speed over the brow of a hill to find a car blocking the road - u turn or just broken down. You might have felt ok about x speed but if that pace did not allow you to avoid or slow to a non life threatening speed who is then at fault the car blocking the lane or you for travelling at a speed that you could not preserve your own life.

Personally when I'm riding I ride at a pace that in the above situation - or when cornering with limited view I wish to be able to slow to a point that some poor bastard doesn't have to put me in a bag to remove me from the scene. However I also drive a car that has all the safety features you could ask for and because of same might actually attack said corners or brow of a hill at a higher pace knowing that if the worst is upon me I can go off road or do what ever to avoid the situation knowing I have said protection around me.

[Katman]

I know this is a major stretch for you my friend, but have you considered the possibility that quite a lot of crashes are not the fault of the motorcyclist? And that many of them are unavoidable?

There are a massive number of accidents that are completely avoidable - regardless of who is at fault.

[shrub]

There are a massive number of accidents that are completely avoidable - regardless of who is at fault.

yes, there are, and that's my point. There are a large number of factors behind every crash (and as an aside i prefer the term crash to accident because accident implies randomness and lack of ability to influence an outcome), and our goal should be to mitigate those factors where possible. Some of them we have direct control over - condition of bike, skill, gear, condition of rider etc, but many we don't.

I'm not willing to accept bad behaviour and low skill by other road users, poorly designed and maintained roads and inappropriate laws and enforcement just because I can ride defensively. I have gone to some trouble to minimise the role I play in any potential accident, so why shouldn't the other partners in road transport do their bit too? Maybe some of the riders who lack our skill and experience might not end up getting killed or injured if other road users lift their game too?

I agree entirely, a massive number or crashes are avoidable. Let's take a holistic big picture perspective and look at mitigating ALL of the factors instead of just the easy ones that we can do from behind our own handlebars. Cyclists are doing it, so why can't we?