NOT the Scottish Thread

[Dean]

Generalities are all that were asked for...

... Are you sure?

"Tell me what it is that Maori want, be specific."

[MSTRS:Me]

And there are many many Pākehā 3rd generation bludgers too ...

Yep. Never said there wasn't. But we are talking things Maori here, so I only mentioned Maori. Nor was I trying to imply anything...

... Are you sure?

In which case, I think I might agree with you, to the extent that different tribes may want different tings. Not only that, but IF they get (whatever), I'm sure each tribe will want to do different things with the land, money, 'rights', whatever.

[Dean]

Incase you guys havent seen this video yet, this seems to be the emerging new Metro Maori tm generation movement. Im glad that its not all the gang related stuff.

[avgas]

And there are many many Pākehā 3rd generation bludgers too ...

If you give me a hand I'm sure between us we could load them on a boat out of here

[avgas]

Holy Fuck - DEAN IS BACK!!!!

[Bikemad]

Many thanks and respect to BB for your posts and responses.......i have actually enjoyed reading this thread a lot..........feel a little more informed on the topic but have to say as long as Maori have racist scum like the harawiras pretending to represent the average Maori....... i for one wont be listening to anything they have to say..........i still cant believe the Maori party got Titiwhai Harawira to do a party political broadcast for them in the last elections...........in case no-one remembers anymore....this woman was responsible for the beating and torture of a mentally ill 14 year old boy in her care at what was the Maori psyc unit at carrington years ago.....82-83 from memory..........she got 2 years i think.......shamefull
how would Maori react if Keith Hancock,who ripped off lion foundation,or Mark Lyons,property developer millionaire turned P head fronted an ad for the national party
I do however believe Maori on the whole get a rough deal from the media as they love a good story to sell and nothing sells better than controversy
There was a doco on a couple of years ago about the Maori Businesswoman of whatever year it was.....Coral edmundson???........she had KT footwear............the doco somewhat demonstrated what i felt was the best and the worst of Maori psyc....the worst
being...... the dropkicks she gave the chance of a job who constantly let her down the moment the pay packet was handed over......one guy had never worked a friday his entire employment...........and the best being her good friend and workmate whos relatives drove up on mass from Taranaki to help out aunties friend Coral,for no money........they even brought their own food with them, to help get a big shoe order out and help save the company.......cos the employees wouldnt...........i thought that was magic and sadly this is a side of Maoridom the media would have no interest in reporting i suspect
I do have one question for you BB as you are probably the most informed person i have come across regarding Maori info and i truely mean no offence but somethings been bugging me for a while
as i understand it Kamate Kamate was conceived by Te Rauparaha as he hid from rival Maori/soldiers beneath a wahines skirts as she tended a kumara pit...........So......My question being how did it make the jump from,and again no offence intended here,a guy hiding under a womans skirt......to the haka we see today.sorry i just dont get it..........when was it first actually used as the challenge we see today.

[Hitcher]

There are dangers about making sweeping generalisations about anybody based on their gender, age, country of origin, religion, ethnicity, income level, sexual orientation, level of education and their parents' marital status.

Choice of motorcycle, however, is a completely different proposition. This is, after all, a site for motorcyclists.

[phill-k]

I do have one question for you BB as you are probably the most informed person i have come across regarding Maori info and i truely mean no offence but somethings been bugging me for a while
as i understand it Kamate Kamate was conceived by Te Rauparaha as he hid from rival Maori/soldiers beneath a wahines skirts as she tended a kumara pit...........So......My question being how did it make the jump from,and again no offence intended here,a guy hiding under a womans skirt......to the haka we see today.sorry i just dont get it..........when was it first actually used as the challenge we see today.

Bloody easy answer to that its quite fitting really, the way our allblacks play rugby nowadays its like they have their heads up someones arse

Seriously though I actually find the way the haka is performed by all and sundry a bit offencive, once upon a time the allblacks had such a winning and probably a bit of an overwhelming reputation that they deserved the right to perform the haka but i don't believe they still have the right or mana to perform it.

[mashman]

when was it first actually used as the challenge we see today.

I've never looked at it as a challenge (i know nothing about it, other than what i've read in this thread.), more a greeting dance or death dance, buyer beware no refunds. I could be very wrong though.

[phill-k]

Too right mate, asking for one single Maori to speak on behalf of all the entire hundreds of thousands that belong to various tribes with various affairs to be specific on what 'we' all want as we progress towards the future - yeh..... its a bit hard aye

Yes the best form of defense is attack ah puss nuts -

As MM states Maori generally speak in terms of us rather than me, well the question was put to mm to answer as he saw the issues and resolution, if none of you are capable of answering the question then there will never be a resolution.

On Sunday nite on Maori TV was a doco on an ex Maori Lawyer, Tracey Tawhiao from the BOP very astute Lawyer on things Maori, who has turned to art to express her feelings about the oppression of maori, trouble was she was very articulate about historical grievances but said nothing about what she felt was a solution to the way forward.

I take a great deal of interest in these issues having married a native and also just as a middle aged NZer interested in things NZ. This country is possibly the best country to live in in the world, I don't believe maori in NZ are that disadvantaged by their history and our all in compassing society takes reasonable care of all NZer's including maori.

Dean as an individual you should be able to express if you feel genuinely disadvantaged, or oppressed because of your ethnicity what you consider t be the solutions to allow you to move on and join and contribute to NZ society.

[MSTRS:Me]

... to move on and join and contribute to NZ society.

But isn't that just the point?
'They' don't want to move on. 'They' want stuff back.
'They' don't want to join. 'They' want their own form of apartheid.
'They' don't want to contribute. 'They' want self-governance.

'They' being the likes of the Harawiras, Ken Mair and Tuhoe, etc

This provocative post brought to you every concerned NZ-born non-Maori

[mashman]

But isn't that just the point?
'They' don't want to move on. 'They' want stuff.
'They' don't want to join. 'They' want their own form of apartheid.
'They' don't want to contribute. 'They' want self-governance.

'They' being the likes of the Key, English and Hyde, etc

Ammended to something that may well have been spoken a couple of hundred years ago

[Banditbandit]

Kia ora ra

Sorry, I haven't been on a computer for weeks .. but I have been thinking about what else I want to say here ... and to answer MSTRS' question ... and respond to other things raised here ...

I won't be here for any longer than it takes to write this ... but I haven't forgotten, ignored or checked out ...

Back with more in the next few days ... I'm having computer problems as well as everything else ... back when I can

[Banditbandit]

A question for you to consider answering - Tell me what it is that Maori want, be specific, don't refer to righting past wrongs, but tell me what Maori want as we as NZers' go forward in the 21st century Kea Kaha

Boy – you
ask some tough ones. As has been said, I can’t speak for all Māori.. but let me give this one a crack ... part of the problem is that I’m one of those dreaded beasts called an “academic” – and a sociologist at heart - so sometimes I think of these things in jargon words ... it's taken a while to get my ideas down the best I can ... asnd I'm sorry - I can't help but refer to some of the past ...

We want a fair and equitable society ... we want to be one nation with many cultures ... we want Pākehā to make a social space which includes us and all other cultures that are present in Aotearoa.

Ignore what the Pākehā media says. The people they highlight are good news value – they are not completely representative of all Māori views. While we will not criticise people like Hone Harawira to Pākehā, and we might agree with the message, we do not all agree with the approach. The Pākehā media makes too much of what these people say ... they don’t highlight Pākehā radicals in the same way ...

We want a fair and equitable society ...

We do not have a level playing field. Our economic resources were taken from us in the 19th and 20th century, and the Pākehā benefited from gaining those economic assets – primarily land. If we had retained those assets we would be in a much better position socially than today. And I don’t mean we would be rich – but many of the social issues we face, and badly affect our young people, would not exist to the level they do today.

We want to recognise that this country has many cultures. Pākehā are good at making the right words – but do not follow that up with action. Recognising many cultures means not expecting people we meet to follow the behavioural norms of our own cultures, and allowing them to behave in ways acceptable within their culture ...Theft, murder, domestic violence, drug and alcohol abuse are NOT part of Māori culture – these were learnt from the Pākehā or are a well-researched result of colonisation. This does not mean that individual responsibility for crimes, and such, are abrogated. Reasons for actions are not the same as excuses for actions.

However, within Māori culture, the group is responsible for all its members. The individualism and rebellion of our young people was learnt from Pākehā. It is not a part of our culture.

Some Pākehā are really good at saying “Why can’t we be one culture? And meaning we should all be Pākehā culture ... I agree – I have lived in both and think we would all be better off if we all followed Māori culture – it’s a saner and more human way to live .. but in reality there are many cultures in this country and they should each be allowed their space ...

We want Pākehā to make a social space for us ...

We tried to make a social space for Pākehā in our world, but that was rejected by the settlers who wanted us to become like them. Now, White New Zealand (and I make a distinction between White New Zealand, which I use as a deliberately derogatory term, from Pākehā, which is an inhabitant of this country with ancestors from European countries and not derogatory) pushes us to the margins, makes derogatory comments about our people, especially our young people who have lost their way in this world. This means that some of our young people are trying to live up to the negative images pushed by white New Zealanders ... And before you argue about the origins of the word Pākehā, it simply means a New Zealander of European origin that was born here .. . and if you don’t like being given a name by another group, Māori was not our name for ourselves – it was the name the first Europeans who got here gave us ... We are named by the other group ..

So – we take responsibility for our people – watch programmes such as Māori TV’s programme on our heath initiatives in Whanganui to see what we are doing.
Watch Māori TV and you will get a different view of our country from the Pākehā media

As well, we want you to listen to us and include us in decision-making processes. I’ll try to articulate this through an example.

In Northern Hawke’s Bay the iwi Rakaipaka are asking for the return of the Mohaka River to Māori control. This is important for the future of the region. Right now a lot of water is being taken from the river for irrigation of agricultural processes. Too much water. Rakaipaka is saying that the water supplies in their areas are drying up. Springs and wells that supply houses are disappearing. This means that young people are moving away from the area and into the cities – with attendant social problems. As well, Rakaipaka’s kiwifruit orchards and vineyards will be affected. But this is not just happening for Māori homes and businesses, this will also be happening for Pākehā homes and businesses as the area is a mix of Māori and Pākehā. The bush areas are drying up – the land is drying up. IT affects everyone who lives there.

Pākehā scientists who are involved in consent processes for water say there is not an issue, but the people who live there can see the issue – it affects them every day. This is not necessarily a Māori issue, as it affects Pākehā as well, and there are Pākehā voices opposing further irrigation in areas like Canterbury and the Mackenzie country (remember the row over the enclosed dairy farms proposed for the Mackenzie country.)

Rakaipaka doesn’t want control of the river to take out more water – they want control of the river to basically leave the water where it is – so that homes have a water supply, so the existing businesses have a water supply.

We don’t trust the Pākehā processes for allocating water – they are proven to be flawed. University trained “scientists” don’t know the land like the people who live there do. If Rakaipaka gets control of the river whole communities will benefit – both Māori and Pākehā.

Now, this highlights another issue – our two cultures have lost trust in each other. That’s a terrible state of affairs. It’s highlighted by the Foreshore and Seabed debate. Pākehā believe that if we get control of that we will restrict access to the beaches. Nothing could be further from the truth – and in fact in many places Pākehā land owners restrict access to the beaches now. The situation is not helped by some of our own people, who, as a protest, have restricted access to the beach where they own the land. Let’s put the Foreshore and Seabed issue aside for the moment, as it is a bit of a sidetrack – I only brought it up to as an example of the mistrust between our two groups. I am prepared to discuss it, but not quite here.

I want to move this somewhere else. So that’s enough for now. As some questions, lets have a discussion and then I’ll add some more ...

Thank you to those who have taken the time to read all the way through and considered what I have said.

Ngā mihi aroha ki a koutou.

[avgas]

Yeah nah that sounds to complicated.

How about $20 billion and some KFC?