The firearm thread

[carver]

Yep, my 'shorty' Gevarm has a section inside the bolt that can be turned around to provide less main-spring pressure for sub-sonic ammo - which I use in it exclusively.

Always fires - but if you know how that model of Gevarm functions you wouldn't be surprised.

ya know the TOZ 78 i got has a adjustable trigger weight and creep?
cost me $330 new!

go the ruskies!

[Wolf]

It's amazing that little round has the power to operate the mechanism to chamber the next round and still have enough puff left to actually penetrate anything tougher than a tomato at 20 paces.

.22lr semi autos have been managing that feat for a large number of years. And the graveyards have more than enough occupants who underestimated the lethality of the "little .22" (or were killed by others who underestimated its killing power and range).

Frankly, I'd be rather "annoyed" if anyone fired any firearm at me - and also seeking cover and trying to work out the most effective way to get myself completely out of danger.

If anyone pointed a firearm at me, I would not be worrying about what calibre it is or engaging in ignorant mind-wanks like "it's only a .22", I'd be viewing it as a clear and present danger with a good likelihood of death or at least serious injury. Despite what the movies depict, lethality is not directly related to bore diameter, projectile mass or powder charge - as always, placement of the hit is important and I'd be wanting to make sure that nothing is placed on me.

[Wolf]

You can't throw shiruken as far as you can throw bullets, and you can't penetrate as much material. Keeping heads down is a key part of fire-and-maneuvre. In modern NATO warfare, the AR's job is to use that firepower to keep heads down and allow your fire team members to move into a position where they can kill with 1 - 2 shots. Sure, being alone with a SAW set to Rock & Roll probably isn't the best use of ammo, but you have to look at full auto in the context of what it is designed for - as only one of several components at the disposal of your fire teams.

...in saying all that, you're hardly going to use a fully auto .22 as part of your fire team (unless you're desperate). That's just more of a proof of technology thing than anything else.

Meh, Fire Teams. What happened to the Golden Age of Single Combat and Heroism?

I'm hardly likely to be in a fire team engaging in NATO fire and manoeuvre style combat, either.

[Drunken Monkey]

Meh, Fire Teams. What happened to the Golden Age of Single Combat and Heroism?

It died with chivalry, about 100 years ago...

I'm hardly likely to be in a fire team engaging in NATO fire and manoeuvre style combat, either.

Never played airsoft or paintball? Tactic still works, even with those. (Actually you don't even need ammo, people duck their heads when they hear the gas escaping from the gun).


And yes, .22 does get underestimated. It is (supposedly) the ammunition of choice for professional killers. The Stirling .22 has the dubious honour of being used in the most armed robberies in Australia. I think that's probably driven by economics than anything else though...

[Wolf]

Never played airsoft or paintball? Tactic still works, even with those. (Actually you don't even need ammo, people duck their heads when they hear the gas escaping from the gun).

Play paintball frequently but we use semi-auto to lay down suppressive fire - in fact, our markers are all gravity fed and no response triggers (or similar high rate of fire mechanisms) allowed in our games so they are down at the speed of a real semi auto rifle... about as fast as you can repeatedly pull a normal trigger on a semi-auto rifle or pistol.

Semi-auto seems fine for keeping people's heads down, I note - and you still have stuff left in the hopper/mag afterwards.

I wouldn't say we use proper NATO "fire team" tactics tho', despite having a couple of "Weekend Warriors" in our group. We do lay down suppressive fire for one another when changing positions, tho'.

And yes, .22 does get underestimated. It is (supposedly) the ammunition of choice for professional killers.

Well, it certainly quietens down a lot with a suppressor and subsonic ammo - much more so than a larger calibre. With properly placed shots, the "humble" .22 is a quite sufficiently lethal weapon. And that's before you get nasty and start fucking about with the projectiles. Suppressed, it's a very quiet, discreet lethal weapon.

I get quite steamed when people get on the "it's only a little .22" track - it's that sort of shit that gets people killed or maimed. I'd not want to go shooting with someone who has that sort of attitude.

I was drilled in respect for firearms by two parents who would make a hardened drill sergeant seem like a kindly, soft old gent when it came to the subject of firearms safety.

[sAsLEX]

If you want to know weapons ask the Israelis they seems to know there stuff

http://www.ruger1022.com/docs/israeli_sniper.htm

[Wolf]

If you want to know weapons ask the Israelis they seems to know there stuff

http://www.ruger1022.com/docs/israeli_sniper.htm

Hehe.

In the recent Israeli-Palestinian clashes began in 2000, the Ruger resumes it's [sic] original role as a less lethal riot control weapon. However, it's [sic] usage in this role was rather controversial this time. After several incidents involving the death of Palestinians by the Ruger fire, the IDF conducted a field experiment in the Ruger at the IDF Sniper School in Mitkan Adam under the supervision of the IDF Judge Advocate General (JAG). The test showed that the Ruger was more lethal then [sic] thought especially in upper body injuries. Also, since it's suppressed and was considered less lethal by the troops, the soldiers were much more likely to use the Ruger loosely then [sic] intended.

As a result of this test, the JAG reclassified the Ruger as a lethal weapon.

Seems they made the classic mistake but at least had the good sense to reassess the situation.

It boils down to: people have died from a single shot from a .22lr and others have survived multiple shots from .45ACP or .308. Nothing's a "guaranteed kill" and nothing's "less than lethal". Respect them all, bear in mind the dangers and maybe you and your hunting buddy will both make it out unharmed.

[Expert]

apparently the little .22 round is thinking mans' the weapon of choice for suicide, probably again driven by economics, but supposedly it has the power to penetrate the skull from underneath, but not the power to exit. instead, it rattles around in your head and scrambles your brain!!
00 buckshot would still be my choice though.

Sorry to put a downer on an otherwise lively discussion

It's still a puny round, it probably wouldn't penetrate a thick coat at 100m.
They aren't allowed on doc land for a good reason, and in a combat situation injuring your oponent is more effective at casing mayhem than killing them.

[scumdog]

apparently the little .22 round is thinking mans' the weapon of choice for suicide, probably again driven by economics, but supposedly it has the power to penetrate the skull from underneath, but not the power to exit. instead, it rattles around in your head and scrambles your brain!!
00 buckshot would still be my choice though.

Seen a through-and through from the side with a .22 in a suicide.(A position fairly close to that Davis Bains old man was meant to have used - but was apparently impossible).

And I have seen a shotgun used twice to the head by a guy who wasn't happy with life..


So there's no 100% accurate way to predict things

[Wolf]

It's still a puny round, it probably wouldn't penetrate a thick coat at 100m.

No need to remind me never to go shooting with you, son - I'll remember well enough myself.

A one shot kill has been recorded at around 3km - that's twice the "dangerous out to 1500m" printed on the packets of ammo.

Of course, it was a freak, accidental kill of an innocent picnicker by some fucktard who no doubt also thought it couldn't penetrate a heavy coat at 100m.

I'd be interested in hearing what else it is you claim to be an "expert" at, as it patently isn't firearms or ballistics.

[jono035]

No need to remind me never to go shooting with you, son - I'll remember well enough myself.

A one shot kill has been recorded at around 3km - that's twice the "dangerous out to 1500m" printed on the packets of ammo.

Of course, it was a freak, accidental kill of an innocent picnicker by some fucktard who no doubt also thought it couldn't penetrate a heavy coat at 100m.

I'd be interested in hearing what else it is you claim to be an "expert" at, as it patently isn't firearms or ballistics.

Easy, tiger.

I'd be interested to see a reference for that accident? Even the 'hyper-velocity' .22 ammo is around 600m/s, which would be a 5 second flight time. That's a drop of 120m from the barrel line. Also, most of the ballistics calculators put the energy of a standard .22lr round (with me being generous on bullet weight, velocity and BC) at about 20 Joules at 1km out, with the velocity being about 100m/s, which, conveniently is also terminal velocity for a .22lr bullet.

So, that would pretty much assume that the person was hit by the bullet falling directly down at terminal velocity, probably tumbling.

I dunno, man...

[The Pastor]

there is some utter shit talked on here!




















Keep it up!

[Wolf]

Easy, tiger.

I'd be interested to see a reference for that accident? Even the 'hyper-velocity' .22 ammo is around 600m/s, which would be a 5 second flight time. That's a drop of 120m from the barrel line. Also, most of the ballistics calculators put the energy of a standard .22lr round (with me being generous on bullet weight, velocity and BC) at about 20 Joules at 1km out, with the velocity being about 100m/s, which, conveniently is also terminal velocity for a .22lr bullet.

So, that would pretty much assume that the person was hit by the bullet falling directly down at terminal velocity, probably tumbling.

I dunno, man...

I was not told who the people were nor exactly when it took place. It was one of the examples given by our firearms safety officer when I did the course a very large number of years ago.

It was a ricochet off water, he said.

Mr "Expert" is most welcome to test his theory about a "thick coat" stopping a .22 at 100m provided that no one is wearing it at the time.

And he's nowhere near me at the time.

[Expert]

Pull yer head in wolf, if you're this easily wound up you shouldn't be allowed to have a firearm either. And i suppose you actually are a wolf?? Dickhead.

[The Pastor]

Pull yer head in wolf, if you're this easily wound up you shouldn't be allowed to have a firearm either. And i suppose you actually are a wolf?? Dickhead.

I'm glad to see you have gone from self proclaimed expert, to expert. Which begs the question, how do you get qualified as an expert? A self proclaimed one I understand - i.e., a person who has a high opinion of themselves.

I would suggest to you, that the true experts are called experts only by others, and not by themselves.

Then I start to wonder what you're an "expert" in? Knitting? Baking? or perhaps, being a bitch. I would call you an expert in being a bitch. From now on i'll call you bitch expert.

FYI, here is a picture of wolf, at the last kb shoot we did.




p.s Don't take life to seriously!