Is John a spineless pussy or what?

[rwh]

The thing about STV is that there is no party vote. You can choose to look at it as a party vote if you wish, but really it is a candidate vote. MMP has led to party-loyalty-driven politics, and with so many MPs with no electorate loyalty, government has become far-removed from the people that put them there. In some ways, it is worse than FFP.

Ok, I just googled STV, and confess I've been getting my terms muddled. Preferential Voting (a component of STV), or Instant Runoff voting, is what I've been talking about, and would like to see applied to both the local candidate vote and the party vote (as long as the 5% threshold remains)

I'm also having trouble finding info on exactly what was proposed under the label of 'STV' at the time of the referendum; the wikipedia description doesn't quite match with my memory, and the method used for coucils (eg Wellington City) doesn't seem like it would fit well for central government - it works for multi-winner elections, whereas I think for the central govt system we were still to be voting for one person per electorate?

For STV to work as a true proportional system, it seems to me it would have to let us rank all the candidates (if the average party thought they could manage at most 50%, with 5 parties that would be around 250 candidates for 100 seats) in one big list, which is probably a little more effort than most voters would be willing to contribute.

Can you remind me (or suggest a link) how this was supposed to work?

Perhaps PM; this is getting a little off topic

Richard

[MSTRS:Me]

How many candidates total isn't an issue. All that matters is the ones in your electorate...one from each party that decides to run there.
I don't claim to know all the ins and outs either. But I do know that we were sold a white elephant with MMP...

[rwh]

How many candidates total isn't an issue. All that matters is the ones in your electorate...one from each party that decides to run there.
I don't claim to know all the ins and outs either. But I do know that we were sold a white elephant with MMP...

If you're only voting for your own electorate, and you only get one seat per electorate (unlike WCC wards), then it's pretty much the Instant Runoff system, as far as I can see, and will not really give a proportional result at the parliament level. Signifiacantly better than FPP, but not enough IMHO.

How's this for a new suggestion:

One seat per electorate, elected by Instant Runoff.
Then allocate proxy votes, as opposed to actual seats with paid people in them, to parties in line with the party vote (run as it is now).

This would give a roughly similar result to what we have now, but with hopefully better winners in the electorates (and therefore members in the house), fewer salaries, and nobody sitting there who arguably hasn't been voted in.

Votes would have to be submitted by the party, though, since there could well be parties that have a significant bunch of proxies but nobody sitting in the house (eg Green, NZ first, many smaller parties).

Unfortunately it would reduce the members to being mere debaters, so I think this one needs more work ...

Richard

[trustme]

But I do know that we were sold a white elephant with MMP...

You can't say you weren't warned, but of course Peter Shirtcliffe was one of those nasty successful business men, even worse I think he was a member of the business round table. He was derided to detract attention from what he was actually saying.

Don't ever snivel that we were promised another referendum. We were not .

We don't elect govts, we vote govts out.
we didn't vote for MMP as much as we voted FPP out , naively believing what we were told, that MMP was the best alternative.

[trustme]

For STV to work as a true proportional system, it seems to me it would have to let us rank all the candidates (if the average party thought they could manage at most 50%, with 5 parties that would be around 250 candidates for 100 seats) in one big list, which is probably a little more effort than most voters would be willing to contribute.

Can you remind me (or suggest a link) how this was supposed to work?

Perhaps PM; this is getting a little off topic

Richard

I thought you still voted for your electorate , rating the candidates within your electorate in terms of preference

[Indiana_Jones]

So he doesn't wanna stay on if he's not PM, big deal.

I didn't see comrade clark admiting she just wasn't grooming herself (while shitting on the public) for a UN job while she was PM

-Indy

[MSTRS:Me]

We don't elect govts, we vote govts out.
we didn't vote for MMP as much as we voted FPP out , naively believing what we were told, that MMP was the best alternative.

And we still vote govts out. Except under MMP, they are never as out as they were under FPP. With the trough that is MMP, being given the opportunity to vote it out is not looking like an option anytime soon.

[oldrider]

I certainly do not want FPP back but the electorate tossed our local Liabour candidate out good and properly!

Under MMP he simply waltzes back in through the party vote back door!

You wouldn't want an MMP politician on your arse as a wart, you would never be able to get rid of it!

[vifferman]

I doubt that Key not staying on if National don't win the next election is a case of falling on his sword. As others have said, he's not a career politician, and was invited to be PM by the Nats. So it's more a case of he's only in it to be their figurehead. He said himself he had three ambitions in life: to be a millionaire (done); to be PM (done); to get a knighthood (apparently he's on his way there).

It answers the question of why he pops up here, there, and everywhere. It's what a figurehead does, innit? He'd rather be out'n'about, taking every photo op possible, than sitting in the House playing silly arguing games with the other pollies.

[Pascal]

I find it hard not to think he really is a spineless simpering pussy...any other thoughts?

Yeah, he is not a career politician. He is somebody who has come from a State home to be a very successful business man and our most popular Prime Minister in recent years.

His policies are still very much centrist - as it has to be to get traction with a decade of the state dependancy and lack of personal responsiblity that Labour infected New Zealand with. However, despite the absolutely fucked up legacy he has to deal with, he's managed to at least steer the good ship NZ back into the right direction.

It's not going to be an overnight fix - not with a decade of tax and frivolous spending behind us. But it'll come in time, I believe.

Other than that, he appears to be a genuine human being to me. More than I can say for almost any other politician except Lockwood.

[mashman]

Yeah, he is not a career politician. He is somebody who has come from a State home to be a very successful business man and our most popular Prime Minister in recent years.

Every Politician should be a career politician... if they're not, then I question why they took the job in the first place... He's a greedy cunt, just like the rest of them and will probably leave office because his standard of living will have dropped in line with his loss of public purse earnings... and he wants a knighthood ... I hope she lops he fucking head off!

[Fatt Max]

Still reckon Helen Clarke and Jenny Shipley could have both sucked the chrome off a tow ball in their day.

Imagine looking down and seeing Helen's 'doe' eyes staring back at you, or seeing Jenny all strapped up in benders and a basque, both of them playing a good old tune on yer custard chucker....

[admenk]

Imagine looking down and seeing Helen's 'doe' eyes staring back at you, or seeing Jenny all strapped up in benders and a basque, both of them playing a good old tune on yer custard chucker....

I'd rather not thanks

[Swoop]

Good on him for stating that he would not stay on and parasite off of the state. Those career morons like Heilen Klerke should take note.

as I knew the general feeling was Labour had to go, because they had "held power for too long".

No. They were just a bunch of lying retards. Fucking up the country on a large scale and screwing us into poverty with the idiot green lunatics.

He'd rather be out'n'about, taking every photo op possible, than sitting in the House playing silly arguing games with the other pollies.

Well, arguing against Phill-in Goff would be a challenge... Not!

[Number One]

Every Politician should be a career politician... if they're not, then I question why they took the job in the first place...

Summed up my thoughts in one with that!!!!