PC brigade already on the offensive at police chases

[tri boy]

The kid found out there is no "reset" button on the big playstation game of life.
Meh. I'm still alive. He isn't.
Next..........

[Latte]

You've taken it upon yourself to do something about it, which is commendable, but it's my opinion (and it seems others here) you're trying to fix the symptoms, and not the disease.

Runners/police chases are the result of a lack of respect for police/authority, and an increase of people using/abusing substances that impair their judgement (I've no evidence of this, but I'm making what I beleive a fairly reasonable assumption).

Taking away the consequences of doing a runner isn't going to fix the problem, merely shift it somewhere else....... or worse (if all I have to do is drive erratically to get away in my stolen car and I know the police have to abandon the pursuit, what happens if I shoot that guy in the corner dairy for $200, and then drive erratically in my stolen car).

Do I have the answer? No , but I can see this isn't going to help. Again, any effort is better than none, and at least your doing something about what you belive in.

[pritch]

Thanks to the Labour party, that is assault!

Actually it was Sue Bradford's bill and she was a Green I think...

[Fatt Max]

Actually it was Sue Bradford's bill and she was a Green I think...

Correction my friend, she is a thick twat...

[Pascal]

Aren't governments supposed to help/educate/service/protect/secure it's people? If not, then what do you see as their role?

From my perspective the government is there to own, maintain and manage the infrastructure required for the country such as roading, railroads and so forth. They are there to act as a representative of New Zealand on the international stage and to manage the external defense force and internal security force of the country as required.

Beyond that I do not believe a government should have a role in the lives of it's people.

Are we gonna just say "sorry, you're on your own" to the poor old buggers who lost their life savings to another folding finance company? Same to the young bloke knocked off his bike through no fault of his own? Or the meatworkers laid off with falling lamb prices? How do these people look after themselves?

My personal feeling is that it is the responsibility of the individual, their household, their family units, etc.

If you have placed all your life savings into one finance company (Eggs in one basket) and it folds, it is not my responsiblity or the governments' responsibility to help you out.

If you have an accident and you do not have medical insurance / regular insurance, it is not my responsiblity or that of the rest of society to fund and care for you.

Laid off? That is one of the risks of employment. You can cover yourself by having income protection insurance to cover the time between you lose your job and when you find another one. Or create another one for yourself.

Now that seems harsh, as if I do not care about the plight of the people you mentioned in the example. I do, but I do not believe it is the role of the government to help everybody. That role can be better fulfilled by society. I would much rather donate the money the government takes off me by force to organisations that I know will use it efficiently and effectively to help people.

You are living in a bubble if you don't think we are living in an aspirational society.

I think we're living in a consumerist, brand and image driven society where people want things to fit their image, but are unable to afford them. They end up in the 30 month interest free deals and sucking up a lifetime of debt.

Getting a bit off topic though.

As to the lady from the Candor Trust. Once police have abandoned any attempt at stopping vehicles driven erratically, speeding through suburban streets or even drunk drivers - what do you think will happen? And realistically - given your ideals they would have to abandon ANY traffic stop to elliminate the need for a pursuit.

Unless, of course, they're allowed to signal that somebody should stop, but if that person ignores them they should ignore them right back. And unfriend them on Facebook. And maybe send them a hate tweet.

[davebullet]

I still can't think of a good reason the police need to chase and cause someone to drive / ride recklessly on public roads, 2 vehicles at high and dangerous speeds careering through the public.

If you have the guys license plate - done.
If the car is stolen - prints and done.
Radio ahead - done
If he owns the car - remove license for 2 years and put him in jail - done.

I must be just too simple.

[mashman]

I still can't think of a good reason the police need to chase and cause someone to drive / ride recklessly on public roads, 2 vehicles at high and dangerous speeds careering through the public.

If you have the guys license plate - done.
If the car is stolen - prints and done.
Radio ahead - done
If he owns the car - remove license for 2 years and put him in jail - done.

I must be just too simple.

You can't handle the reasons ... it'd be like ringing a dinner bell. If people know that the Police won't chase them, what's the likely outcome gonna be? If i'm about to get pulled for speeding and I know the cops can't chase me and have no real idea of who i am, I'd pin it. If they can chase me, I won't.

Tis a lose lose for the cops and a win win for everyone else... p[ointless giving cops Holdens to drive around in, they may as well be driving people carriers...

[SPman]

Correction my friend, she is a thick twat...

She may have a ..........oh forget it!

[scumdog]

I still can't think of a good reason the police need to chase and cause someone to drive / ride recklessly on public roads, 2 vehicles at high and dangerous speeds careering through the public.

If you have the guys license plate - done.
If the car is stolen - prints and done.
Radio ahead - done
If he owns the car - remove license for 2 years and put him in jail - done.

I must be just too simple.

Stolen/false/altered plate? - gone
Stolen car torched/wiped of prints - gone
Not enough other patrol cars in area/tied up with domestic etc - gone
Claim car was stolen - gone


My scenarios happen all the time.

[Pascal]

Stolen car torched/wiped of prints - gone

How does NZ build up a database of fingerprints? In South Africa, you give your fingerprints whenever you get an ID document or a passport.

I remember fondly when we needed fingerprints done here and going to the Ashurst constabulatory and the blank looks. I think they had to dust off the ink pad and wipe the spiderwebs off it.

[scumdog]

How does NZ build up a database of fingerprints? In South Africa, you give your fingerprints whenever you get an ID document or a passport.

I remember fondly when we needed fingerprints done here and going to the Ashurst constabulatory and the blank looks. I think they had to dust off the ink pad and wipe the spiderwebs off it.

If you've been arrested and charge? = fingerprinted.

[phill-k]

I still can't think of a good reason the police need to chase and cause someone to drive / ride recklessly on public roads, 2 vehicles at high and dangerous speeds careering through the public.

If you have the guys license plate - done.
If the car is stolen - prints and done.
Radio ahead - done
If he owns the car - remove license for 2 years and put him in jail - done.

I must be just too simple.

you answered your own question - refer to scummies reply just after your post

[StoneY]

She was from the Candor Trust (whatever that is).

Of ffs they've been a worm in my ear since BRONZ Wellington opened

It was them under the logon of 'Candor' here on KB that tried whipping up a fenzy about enforcement policies being based on world bank financial plans etc etc.....

Wasted hours and hours of our time with 'smoking gun' documents that when fully read through, merely showed Police believed a certain level of enforcement required (as Patrick and Scumdog have explained in lighthearted quips and well proven to be bullshit)
Just coz an ecconomist was used to help crunch various numbers these guys in Candor Trust were screaming the 'Quota was responsible for our road toll'...

Hysterical dribble IMO
The Yanks get this one right.... IMO


Oh btw this is MY personal opnion y'all
Rednecks rule!

[candor]

Well ya' can't please them all and I'm not gonna try to. Stoney what you're trying to do shows, and you've misinterpreted these docs bigtime... perhaps due to allegiances to some politicos who'd not benefit from a full "outing" via the Royal Commission into road safety we and others have called for (Dom Post/Paul Henry/RNZ etc).
Or to your crews lack of PhDs, given it took a PhD to report back on the RAM docs before me and my colleagues were even able to make head nor tail - as I have let you know before, the PhDs down at the AA analysed them and did find an exploded gun. The AA has produced several documents trying to have the formula dropped since eg "saving ourselves", Topshelf productions was even doing a doco about our documents with planning well advanced, but NZ On Air declined funding after 3 full on meetings where the AWARD WINNING producer argued for it with a full treatment ie script etc ("too hot").
... there has been no bigger topic in the road safety policy community since these Documents obtained by the Akilla Foundations principle Martin Jenkins (BCom & BEng) were exposed, resulting in a few MoT staff being sent down the road. These docs have caused a large ruckus but you'd need to be working full on in the area to know that.

Re chases - there's lots of views, lots of considerations - no f'n idea why some people are so insistent we have reached the pinnacle of policy perfection. Results say not. Media people tell me they come to us on some subjects because we do our homework and they pass on others because they don't - it's that simple, no magic formula. They also go to experts like Dr Geoff Alpert and extremely educated veteran campaigners like Candy Priano - just maybe because theyknow their pursuit subject. Odd how all these guys agree, & we concur.

Have said and backed up my bit on it on the old chase thread - so any Q's pitched to me on this thread seeking back up for my views re chases, pleeeeez refer that thread (especially post 60). Only thing I'd like to clarify is that no-one, not me, not Candor, not SUPP (which has much bigger guns than Candor involved) is suggesting banning chases for a minute. That's nothing but media dramatisation. RESTRICT - get the balance of interventions right.

Signing out on tiresome chase subject now, in expectation the next generation will get it right . Anyone's welcome to contact me (Rachael) through Candor Trust if want to discuss evidence more with me or other staff - we are overloaded with mail and there are some pretty survey responses eg Maori should not be given licences as the solution. So proud to be Kiwi today!

[candor]

Just coz an ecconomist was used to help crunch various numbers these guys in Candor Trust were screaming the 'Quota was responsible for our road toll'...

Not just us - it's what the PHDs made of this formula, and the statement by it's co inventor with the World Bank Economist down at the MOT wasa made that the higher the dose of the formula the higher the road toll bangs up. So MoT started these accusations against their methos, not us, yet you shoot the messenger about the formula f*** up.
Rendered in plain English as "road toll equals existing risk on network minus assumed impact of speed, drink drive and seatbelt tickets issued". Below is one of MoTs quota revisions from 2005 I think. First they sent Akilla sleep safety Foundation 100 pages of computer language that the principle incredulously forwarded me, after MoT earlier denying its existence - 2 years and Ombudsmen involvement later they released the real McCoy, and the notes showing its a dud.


Source - MoT National Road Safety Committee appendix to meeting minutes, stored at NZTA, Chews Lane. We read all 7000 odd pages and copied heaps for release soon.