PC brigade already on the offensive at police chases

[StoneY]

Not just us - it's what the PHDs made of this formula, and the statement by it's co inventor with the World Bank Economist down at the MOT wasa made .............

Here we go again

Same rhetoric you used last time, same conspiracy, and again spurious reference to 'the PHD's...'

I name my sources Rachel, names, facts and documents and this time I dont wanna see crap from the 'safer journeys web forum' being posed as 'facts' or 'government documents'

Even the OIA docs you passed us were nothing like you described, there was no 'smoking gun' there was no indication our Police force does anything like you accuse them of.

We went over your doc's very carefully, (and there were more than 3 degree's in our team that did the examination) add to that, one of our committee examines forensic documents for a living!!!.
What we found was nothing but the daily workings of several government departments processing their daily workloads

So what that an economist that went on later to work for the World Bank was involved, its called Career progression and you may be surprised just how many Kiwi's have made their way into high powered international roles.

Be warned fellow KB'ers this is a looong and windy garden path if you let this lot suck you in....

Brent

[davebullet]

Stolen/false/altered plate? - gone
Stolen car torched/wiped of prints - gone
Not enough other patrol cars in area/tied up with domestic etc - gone
Claim car was stolen - gone


My scenarios happen all the time.

I know the media has pet topics and sensationalises things. I would like to know some stats comparing "happy ending" chases with those with serious injury or death. Maybe the odd death is warranted when there is 100 successful chases?

If a car is stolen - the person driving it if chased will either go until:
a) they get away
b) they crash

I would assume drivers who steal cars do not have enough skill to get away. I would police drivers would have more skill than the pursuer. Therefore I would expect b) to be the ultimate result of a pursuit of a stolen vehicle. Someone is going to get seriously injured or die.

If it's a traffic misdemeanor, then a single police car will begin the pursuit. If a bank robbery or high profile chase (murder suspect), then I would expect the police will throw all and sundry at it.

the thing with chases is - you have to ask the question on whether it more important to apprehend the person for what they've done, compared to further loss of life (whether the driver or innocent public).

I'm sure in 100 years or less, we'll have GPS based immobilisation. Stolen vehicle or not, make, model and radius would be sufficient.

[candor]

No here we don't go again Stoney - I deal with enough PROFESSIONAL type groups who intreract in a professional manner not to bother with Bronz Wellington. And have plenty of support on this forum for the formula issue outside the Bronz Wellington by PMs etc - not bully boys see but reasonable people. I'm afraid BW is in a minority in just not "getting it" and very weird and paranoid in its repeated false denial I've not provided sources. Oh yeah - as I told you some of our PhDs don't want their work put on this forum - it's not a normal way to have a meeting or good faith to demand public publication in an environment off hostility from YOU - I offered to present the needed other bits OF INFO EG THE
pHdS stuff at a physical meeting, you said ok then no follow up. I haven't experienced such slackness in other business dealings. I can't take Welly Bronz seriously, just based on my experience sorry. Your loss and lack of appreciation - not mine.

As for chases - what really puzzles me is how the Police Minister and her followers can have the temerity to ignore the experts advice. Not including myself as an expert of course as I'm just one of several messengers. Would they think they know enoug to fly the plane when traveling or to operate on their relatives cancer? Then why do they presume to know better than experts re best chase policies. Gordon Campbell dida great column in the Hutt news over xmas full of common sense saying whats wrong with NZ that we're not up with the play on techy alternatives to chases. It's a golden opportunity for Labour to have a go, but only the Greens have said boo on this.

[Pascal]

the thing with chases is - you have to ask the question on whether it more important to apprehend the person for what they've done, compared to further loss of life (whether the driver or innocent public).

During a routine traffic stop somebody decides to do a runner. The cop has just parked behind the vehicle, so all he has is the back of the person's head,a license plate and nothing more.

Why did he do a runner?

Because he is missing a rego? His warrant has expired? He's got his boss in a few black plastic bags in the boot? Is the car stolen, or will they be able to track that plate back to his home address?

I'd rather not cut the polices' balls off when it comes to dealing with criminals. We're already molly coddling those who turn against our society enough.

It's a golden opportunity for Labour to have a go, but only the Greens have said boo on this.

You are pushing an emotional agenda, mixing it with politics and I'm afraid of the shit you're spewing as if it's gospel. You had an opportunity here to actually respond to Stoney with facts and instead you responded with marketing speech.

If you have so many well researched documents, conclusions, etc. why don't you post them up? Back up your claims. Link to them if they are already online.

[candor]

Mayb because this thread is not about quotas but is about chases. That topic has been well covered in the past. Lets stay on thread topic. He raised that other subject not me - I'm not interested in debating it - especially as he has made clear he isn't - so what would be the point. If you are interested enough there will be some stuff coming available on the issue through a book we're writing - it's not free (:

Oh did you mean re chases not re quotas Pascal...?

[Pascal]

Mayb because this thread is not about quotas but is about chases. That topic has been well covered in the past. Lets stay on thread topic. He raised that other subject not me - I'm not interested in debating it - especially as he has made clear he isn't - so what would be the point. If you are interested enough there will be some stuff coming available on the issue through a book we're writing - it's not free

Obfuscating again. The quote discussion was merely raised as an example of the modus operandi of Candor. And your quoted post reinforces it.

Do you actually have any information available? Or do you only speak in emotional appeals and slogans and try to bluster your way through any requests for supporting documentation?

Oh did you mean re chases not re quotas Pascal...?

The thread topic is "PC brigade already on the offensive at police chases".

[candor]

Maybe if you read my posts you would se I said we have done this already on the police chase thread - you will find info of the sort you seek in post 60 of that thread and others - why duplicate. I don't want RSI!

[phill-k]

Mayb because this thread is not about quotas but is about chases. That topic has been well covered in the past. Lets stay on thread topic. He raised that other subject not me - I'm not interested in debating it - especially as he has made clear he isn't - so what would be the point. If you are interested enough there will be some stuff coming available on the issue through a book we're writing - it's not free (:

Oh did you mean re chases not re quotas Pascal...?

You come on here in a previous post and state your mother was involved in an accident with a drunk driver and thankfully said driver was only doing 90kph because he wasn't being pursued by the police for his crime.
You also come on here and without providing any proof of your argument such as links to said documentary proof use similar analogies to the above about your mother and want all of us to take you seriously - fuck off you tosser.
You make a completely stupid statement about Collins and co not acting on the supposed advice of "experts" but they don't fly planes and carry out operations because they don't have the skill sets, did you ever consider that Collins and co can identify the lunatic fringe when they are presented with the shit you talk and thus use their intellectual abilities to ignore shit that needs to be ignored?

The reason society has a police force empowered to interfere with the rights of the citizens of said society is because a small minority of members of said society choose also to interfere with the rights of the majority. You are attempting to blame some supposedly scientifically proved piece of research for our road toll, when in fact the simple truth is the road toll is a causation of a combination of Technology, arrogance, criminal behaviour, stupidity, and very occasionally just plain bad luck.
If the small minority simply also abide by the rules or norms of society the police would not have much work to do, they or policy are not the cause of our road toll as you would have us believe, therefore your research is flawed, start again and look at the environment surrounding the deaths on our roads and you will discover the causes as I have stated above adding to that the generally poor standard of driving we have in NZ. None of this can be blamed on the police!

[UKDave S]

1/ It has everything to do with society and government when they wont let you parent properly, Sociologically and psychologically growing up is about pushing boundaries and a clip round the ear is the most effective way of finding the boundary ( I do not condone child beating or brutality) and it worked well for me.
2/ The powers that be in the UK are now starting to admit that “PC” has perhaps gone to far as people have been afraid to speak out or even silenced particularly on race issues, that could and should have come to light back in 2004 and were ‘politically’ silenced ( check out young Asian men and sexual grooming / abuse of under age white girls) having been left to develop and fester for 7 years are now reaching epidemic proportions. Allegedly according to recent reports

[PrincessBandit]

2/ The powers that be in the UK are now starting to admit that “PC” has perhaps gone to far as people have been afraid to speak out or even silenced particularly on race issues, that could and should have come to light back in 2004 and were ‘politically’ silenced ( check out young Asian men and sexual grooming / abuse of under age white girls) having been left to develop and fester for 7 years are now reaching epidemic proportions. Allegedly according to recent reports

mmm, off op topic here, but your last point has been recently aired with muslims being angered by suggestions that their young men see white girls as sexually inferior therefore targets for abuse (this in Britain).

Back on topic, I understand that "youth will be youth, boys will be boys, young people will always push boundaries" etc. You are right - I too was from an era when a smacked backside or clip 'round the ears was the norm for dealing with naughty behaviour. I learnt the lessons and did not grow up "damaged" or unbalanced etc. Molly coddling has a lot to answer for in terms of the escalation of what people indulge in, knowing that tptb will either feel sorry for them due to their "hard" upbringing () or the pc brigade will come down like a ton of bricks on anyone trying to bring them to accountability.

[Pascal]

Maybe if you read my posts you would se I said we have done this already on the police chase thread - you will find info of the sort you seek in post 60 of that thread and others - why duplicate. I don't want RSI!

Do you know what a hyperlink is? I've checked the most recent threads this year and one does not go beyond 33 posts and the other one has a post of mine as post 60.

I did find an online policy review of their pursuit policy where they noted that 24 deaths and 91 received serious injuries.

The 24 deaths are broken down as follows:

1. 14 drivers of pursued vehicles (The offender)
2. 6 passengers in pursued vehicles (The accomplice)
3. 3 innocent members of the public.
4. 1 police officer.

The 91 serious injuries are broken down as follows:

1. 33 drivers of pursued vehicles (The offender)
2. 40 passengers in pursued vehicles (The accomplice)
3. 18 innocent members of the public.

So ... 22 people out of an estimated recorded 8279 pursuits. They do note that pursuit statistics prior to 2002 may be questionable as pursuits that do end in crashes may go unrecorded (Payne & Fenske, 1996). This may even still be carrying on, so the actual pursuit statistics could be higher.

What percentage is 22 of 8279?

Even if you are overly concerned for the criminals, what percentage is 137 of 8279?

I think you are letting your feelings for a lost family member cloud your thinking on what is best for New Zealand as a whole. Because those numbers certainly do not justify the type of changes you are calling for.

[Virago]

Maybe if you read my posts you would se I said we have done this already on the police chase thread - you will find info of the sort you seek in post 60 of that thread and others - why duplicate. I don't want RSI!

Providing a link will hardly involve RSI.

I've already asked several questions regarding Candor, which have not been answered.

Candor (Campaign Against Drugs On Roads) was set up as a charitable trust, with the Trust Deed specifying Candor's purpose as working on education and lobbying over the Drug Impaired Driver issue. Why has Candor's focus shifted entirely to that of Police Chase activism, with so-called "educational" messages being based on hysterical conspiracy theories about "World Bank Police Control"?

Further, Candor's Trust Deed clearly specifies that "The activities of the Trust will be limited to New Zealand". Why are you talking about going to the US to participate in their deliberations?

The Police Chase "Survey" you have promoted is proported to be organised by a mysterious Facebook Group called SUPP (Stop Unnecessary Police Pursuits). This group was set up quite literally only hours before you posted the survey link. Who are they? What are their qualifications and what is their operational brief?

It is of great concern when Charitable Trusts (funded by donation) appear to be veering away from their stated and documented purpose. And even greater concern that their modus operandi is becoming increasingly subversive and secretive, with questionable agendas over-riding common sense.

It may be time to take a step back and a couple of deep breaths - your credibility is taking a battering.

[davebullet]

Based on the above stats, the Police get a what is a very difficult and risky job right nearly all the time.

What I wondered is how many deaths would have been casued if pursuits had not occurred? Could well be more if the offender is the violent sort and goes on to commit more crime.

[imdying]

Meh, another full of shit tax dodger.

[SPman]

So, the general consensus on here seems to be......

As has been amply demonstrated by comments in recent days, there are many who believe that the answer to an ineffective deterrent is more deterrent; that leaving in place the likelihood that fleeing from a police car will result in your death is somehow discouraging an unknown number of drivers from fleeing. At least that’s the obvious conclusion to be drawn from claims that to reserve high speed pursuits only for situations in which the danger of permitting the offender to continue on the road clearly outweighed the danger of chasing them would result in “anarchy”. Unless the state wields the biggest possible stick – ideally studded with a few nails – the argument seems to go, criminality will flourish and the streets will run red with the blood of innocents.

Would that be right?????