MSL Council to be lead by Gareth Morgan

[Highlander]

...

almost everyone i know who rides will take advantage of every opportunity available to improve their riding skills...

...However track open days would be my pick, especially if its raining.
Get people to fall off in a safe(r) environment and learn from other riders on a causal day.

I'm keen to be taught a better way / some of the finer points.
I have attended 3 Rider Training ("Track") days. I go with the learning aspect in mind and try following the advice / tips of the instructors, doing things that are new to me. ALWAYS and without fail there are those attending these that treat it like a race practice day. Every time I have been underpassed (passed on the inside) as I'm tipping into a corner. Freaks me out every time. The last one put me off track days. I would rather pay and spend time one on one with a riding instructor than attend another day like this. On that basis I could not recommend a Track Training day to anyone again ( as I have in the past).

I can see track days could be a part of the answer, and if ACC are through this Motorcycle Safety Council throwing money at them great. But for me unless they can change the culture of the track day I would rather they subsidise the cost of personalised time with an instructor.

[p.dath]

Phil for Crying out loud, read what has been said, time and time again.
All operating expenses are to come form the ACC general fund the ring fenced money is ONLY to be spent on ACTUAL safety programmes/activities.

I don't think I mentioned where the $2m was coming from, just what I thought it was going to be used for.

Those programmes/activities to be determined by the newly appointed MLC.All of whom are motorcyclists.

And that was exactly what I said I thought was going to happen, and then I attached a letter from the minister of ACC confirming that.


I think we are actually on the same page ...

[StoneY]

My guess is that the $2m is for the running of the council, not for any council activities. $2m doesn't go far once you have half a dozen staff, buildings, vehicles, and other ongoing costs.

Wrong guess

Currently 2.75 Million estimated (would have been 3.2 mil but too many bikes went on hold when levies rose)
ALL running costs, right down to the little sandwiches at the meetings come from ACC's operational budget NOT from our MSL

I wrote to the minister of ACC asking for the procedure to apply for funding from the $30m ring fenced fund, and was told that a motorcycle safety council was being appointed to administer the payments from the fund.

Yes and I am on that council officially as of Friday

The process to make a submission is still being ironed out but heres the basics for everyone, I will try keep it short, ok?

Those on the MSL council, while being from various orgs like MNZ and Ulysees, BRONZ, WIMA are Ministerial Appointee's
If I quit, my role does not automatically get passed to someone else in BRONZ, the minister will choose a suitable replacement

Gareth Morgan as Chair was a demand of the steering committee - we refused to allow AA to run it, and Nick Smith HAS been listening to us and has assured us he will continue to listen

In his office on Friday he made several commitments to us and one was to listen if we have advise.
His own words were "I would be a fool to create a council of your caliber then fail to listen to your advice"

We do not get PAID to be on this council, in fact I sacrifice about 280$ of income to attend meetings.

Progress will be measured on successes and these successes are:
Reduction in accidents at known Motorcycle Black Spots
Overall reduction in Motorcycle injuries
Reduction in Motorcycle deaths

AND we have a solid promise from Nick, reduce accidents by a noticeable factor (say 20%ish) and the Levy's will be reduced. FACT, promise made to the Safety Council, and on record!

The way this is MEANT to work is like this fictional example I am going to make here:

Example 1
Bob has to travel 200kms from Gore to attend Rider training. There is no schools in Gore (fictional example remember)

Bob makes a submission to ACC to get MSL funding to pay for a motorcycle Instructors School to open in Gore.
He makes a business case for it, and indicates the crashes around Gore are xx% more frequent than in Dunedin
The council approve this idea and heavilly subsidize a suitable training providor to host courses in Gore to save Gore riders the 200km journey to attend training sessions
Over the next 2 years crashes in Gore reduce to being no worse than in Dunedin
MSL worked for Bob and the other learner riders in Gore

Example 2
Ed wants to reduce the lichen moss on popular motorcycle roads like Wainui coast road
He needs a ute, and some form of hot steam delivery system to kill the moss, and funding to pay for his time and energy to do this task
He compiles a business case, and submits his submission
ACC Secretariat evaluates his submission, sends it back for more detail and (for example) asks him to include pricing for doing other regions roads well known for the 'green carpet' on popular Motorcycle routes, and how frequently he might need to re-visit these roads over, say 3 years?

Ed re-submits his case after some further research.
The Safety council see real merit in Ed's case, and approve the funding, for say 2 years after which we expect the local road authorities to take over the ongoing contractual fee's for Ed's new business.

Ed gets to set up his small business, which helps keep us safer on mossy roads.
YOUR MSL fee working FOR you!

Fictional remember folks (but I really like my 2nd example someone should run with it!)

Now as to us council members responsibilities:
We cannot make any submissions, it would be a direct conflict of interest

We cannot be a part of any organisation that has commercial gains to be made from any MSL funding, again a direct conflict of interest

Our role is to advise the Minister and ACC on 'likely success' of proposed projects, and help prioritise what the MSL gets spent on
ACC have the final say on funding but as Nick said, we the council members will be the ones to tick the 'approved' box on submissions, and so far they have listened to us during the establishment process.

We get 2 years as a member on the council and no guarantee we will be kept for another two years.

I hope this clears up many of the misunderstandings for some of us?
I saw Anne on Breakfast this morning and realised how woefully un-informed many people are regarding WHAT MSL is and how it works.

There is no trough, no fat checkbook, and no free ride for those participating just a lot of hard work and number crunching, with one goal as the outcome:

REDUCE THE LEVY's


And at least its being overseen by bikers, we the council are YOUR watchdog, insuring this money is spent ONLY on us!

[caseye]

Well, thats plain enough.Cheers Stoney.
My personal opinion of the MSL is that it should never have needed to exist.
But here it is and I have to say while I totally oppose the Increase in ACC levys, the establishment of the MSL or any other form of placebo for motorcyclists while they are being openly ripped off and most definitely encouraged to give up their motorcycles because of the burgeoning costs involved.
That if we have to have anyone on that council at least it's members are no nonsense motorcyclists and Thank God for making sure that you guys said No to Peter Noon of the AA.
Make it work from that end Stoney, we'll keep hammering them from ours.

[RiderInBlack]

In his office on Friday he made several commitments to us and one was to listen if we have advise.
His own words were "I would be a fool to create a council of your caliber then fail to listen to your advice"
......
AND we have a solid promise from Nick, reduce accidents by a noticeable factor (say 20%ish) and the Levy's will be reduced. FACT, promise made to the Safety Council, and on record!

I hope you are not silly enough to believe any Politician is going to hold to their Promises. I will just have to wait and see, but I bet that the ACC Levy will not go down as long as Tricky Nicky has anything to do with it. He's known for spinning Stats to suit himself and now has the MSL buying into it. I wonder if MSL "Advised" him the WRB should be made more safe for motorcycles or replaced with barriers that are, whether he would do anything more than "Listen". I bet not.
In saying this, I do hope the MSL does bring about positive changes for all Motorcyclist and doesn't just become the Government's Whipping boys selling Us the Government's lines.

[StoneY]

I I do hope the MSL does bring about positive changes for all Motorcyclist and doesn't just become the Government's Whipping boys selling Us the Government's lines.

Well I tell you now my friend I am no ones whipping boy, and nor is any of the other appointee's.

There are no roll over yes men in this council.
None.

[riffer]

I wonder if MSL "Advised" him the WRB should be made more safe for motorcycles or replaced with barriers that are, whether he would do anything more than "Listen". I bet not.

You know Doug, I've only heard of one death attributed to WRB's. And it could be argued that rider's actions were a big contributor to why he hit them.

While I hate the feckin things I'm not sure if the MSL money should go towards the elimination of WRBs. It would soak up a huge amount of money doing that, although perhaps given that it's so big an amount it may be worth pushing MSL to lobby Transit. You never know - it could work. Time will tell how much MSL can advocate for reallocation of Transit funds.

[StoneY]

While I hate the feckin things I'm not sure if the MSL money should go towards the elimination of WRBs.

It could be used to modify the most exposed lengths of WRB though.....relatively cheaply

It would soak up a huge amount of money doing that,

Maybe replacing yes...but maybe not just suitable modification, eg the catch net and inflatable post buffers in some European countries.........

although perhaps given that it's so big an amount it may be worth pushing MSL to lobby Transit. You never know - it could work. Time will tell how much MSL can advocate for reallocation of Transit funds.

Well....... there is no reason MSL can't pay for the research to prove this is a move worth lobbying for, and we already have plenty of PHD's in our mailing lists after all ...


Its what WE do with this that counts.

[White trash]

There is no trough, no fat checkbook, and no free ride for those participating just a lot of hard work and number crunching, with one goal as the outcome:

REDUCE THE LEVY's

While this is admirable, I'd prefer to see a decrease in the number of motorcycle fatalitys personally.

[RiderInBlack]

Well I tell you now my friend I am no ones whipping boy, and nor is any of the other appointee's.

There are no roll over yes men in this council.
None.

I really hope that is so, but I know just how slippery Pollies can be. Be very wary dealing with them, because if they are any good at being a Pollie, they will steal the Lolly-pop from ya Child, and make ya believe it was ya child's fault.

[RiderInBlack]

While I hate the feckin things I'm not sure if the MSL money should go towards the elimination of WRBs. It would soak up a huge amount of money doing that, although perhaps given that it's so big an amount it may be worth pushing MSL to lobby Transit. You never know - it could work. Time will tell how much MSL can advocate for reallocation of Transit funds.

Did you not read what I had written or did you misunderstand what I had written?

I wonder if MSL "Advised" him the WRB should be made more safe for motorcycles or replaced with barriers that are, whether he would do anything more than "Listen". I bet not.

Where in there do I suggest that MSL funds be used the make the WRB safer for Motorcycles? What I had suggested that MSL takes Smith at his "Word" that he would "Listen" to their "Advise" and advise him that WRB need to be made safer.
By the way, how many "Deaths" do you need before you accept something as not doing the job it was intend to do, or the a "Safety Barrier" is unsafe?

[Katman]

By the way, how many "Deaths" do you need before you accept something as not doing the job it was intend to do, or the a "Safety Barrier" is unsafe?

If someone is stupid enough to play with a loaded gun and it goes off while they're pointing it at their head, is that the fault of the gun?

[RiderInBlack]

If someone is stupid enough to play with a loaded gun and it goes off while they're pointing it at their head, is that the fault of the gun?

Not, but I would blame the person callas enough to point a gun at someone else's head & it goes off. I would also object strongly to someone else pointing a gun to my head, without it going off. This is IMHO, exactly what they have done when the put a WRB in the middle of the road with no buffer zone.

[Katman]

Not, but I would blame the person callas enough to point a gun at someone else's head & it goes off. I would also object strongly to someone else pointing a gun to my head, without it going off. This is IMHO, exactly what they have done when the put a WRB in the middle of the road with no buffer zone.

Doesn't change the fact that if stupidity hadn't entered the equation then a grand total of zero New Zealand motorcyclists would have been killed by WRBs.

[RiderInBlack]

Doesn't change the fact that if stupidity hadn't entered the equation then a grand total of zero New Zealand motorcyclists would have been killed by WRBs.

I agree with you totally there Katman, but where the WRB are concerned I'm counting the "Stupidity"of choosing WRB as the best option for NZ Roads. That was very f*cken Stupid.
Just as a side point, we would be a very boring species and wouldn't have got anywhere without a degree of Stupidity. Stop and think deeply about that, and know that it is true.