Who is sick of all the Waitangi bullshit?

[JimO]

old jake knows how to show a woman a good time, had a american tell me once he liked the Once were warriors movie, i told him its a documentary mate

[BoristheBiter]

old jake knows how to show a woman a good time, had a american tell me once he liked the Once were warriors movie, i told him its a documentary mate

It was, wasn't it?

[SMOKEU]

It was, wasn't it?

It certainly wasn't fictitious.

[Paul in NZ]

Are you expecting us to live by Pākehā dress standards and codes???? Another cultural imperialist !!!!

Nah - he can wear what he likes but the real point is that he HAS to wear a jacket and tie in the debating chamber so he does that shit with his tie just to show us all what a stauch as rebel he is.... Its tragic... If I was asked to participate at a function on a marae people would laugh at me for cocking up the protocols or muffing my lines - right up to the point where if they thought I was doing it deliberately to take the piss, then they would be rightly offended... In this case Mr H is the petty cultural imperialist...

The whole thing is a bloody attention seeking beat up and about advancing HIS own ego. It does nothing for our country or his 'people'... Its bloody sad...

[Banditbandit]

Nah - he can wear what he likes but the real point is that he HAS to wear a jacket and tie in the debating chamber so he does that shit with his tie just to show us all what a stauch as rebel he is.... Its tragic... If I was asked to participate at a function on a marae people would laugh at me for cocking up the protocols or muffing my lines - right up to the point where if they thought I was doing it deliberately to take the piss, then they would be rightly offended... In this case Mr H is the petty cultural imperialist...

The whole thing is a bloody attention seeking beat up and about advancing HIS own ego. It does nothing for our country or his 'people'... Its bloody sad...

Yes, I'm not pleased with our people who insist that others follow our kawa ... then do not show the same respect for the norms and protocols of other cultures ... we're not all like that ...

[Paul in NZ]

Yes, I'm not pleased with our people who insist that others follow our kawa ... then do not show the same respect for the norms and protocols of other cultures ... we're not all like that ...

By we I hope you mean the global we.... Because we aint all like 'that' either...

My daughters did a lot of Maori and Pacific papers (which I edited and reviewed etc) and I have to say I really enjoyed them. I've been reading a lot of NZ history too and its really interesting how my opinions have changed as I've gained knowledge. I've always been fascinated in why things happened as much as in how...

Maori and Pakeha both need to wake up and unify if they want to hand our little slice of paradise to our kids...

[admenk]

Maori and Pakeha both need to wake up and unify if they want to hand our little slice of paradise to our kids...

Trouble is, it seems to me that there are some on each side who make a whole career and comfortable living, out of making sure everyone is not unified.
Maybe if we sent them off to an island somewhere, the rest of us could get on quite happily, recognising and celebrating our differences on some issues and uniting on others.....or am I being a bit thick?

[Paul in NZ]

...or am I being a bit thick?

Nah - just unrealistic...

We need to keep an open mind though - Ghandi was a bit of a trouble maker but he kinda worked out pretty good.

[mashman]

Trouble is, it seems to me that there are some on each side who make a whole career and comfortable living, out of making sure everyone is not unified.
Maybe if we sent them off to an island somewhere, the rest of us could get on quite happily, recognising and celebrating our differences on some issues and uniting on others.....or am I being a bit thick?

A death match perhaps? Conquerer rules

[R-Soul]

What we really need right now is a really threatening clearly identifiable common enemy threatening us to drive us back together again!

Don't the Aussies count?

[Bald Eagle]

Trouble is, it seems to me that there are some on each side who make a whole career and comfortable living, out of making sure everyone is not unified.
Maybe if we sent them off to an island somewhere, the rest of us could get on quite happily, recognising and celebrating our differences on some issues and uniting on others.....or am I being a bit thick?

Trouble is they already got sent to an island, ( well actually two ) and they had to row all the way .

[R-Soul]

five years later the Treaty of Waitangi established the modern nation as a partnership between Pakeha and Maori -

Forgive my lack of local history. i have heard that Maori's were not happy because it was not really a "partnership" as they expected. But I understand that a true partnership in those days would have involved both the white governors and Maori kings/chiefs taking joint decisions together, and Maoris and Pakeha's living separate lives apart from each other? Am i right? So, in other words, a separate system with separate rules and laws for the Maoris /Pakeha in which everybody coexists? And keeping the Maori cultures and traditions alive in separate areas? But this sounds a bit like apartheid TBH...

And this is what the exremists still want? If this is true - I have to question whether most modern Maori (at least the ones that I have met) would want to still be subject to a local monarch or chief (I understand there was no Paramount chief to speak of? I may be wrong)? With no vote?

My feeling is that if the modern Maori want to be free Maori with a vote, and living in a modern demorcratic system, then they should stop this pushing for a 'return to Maori ways', and join the rest of us in society as equals...

Also, I undertand that in the past, in traditional Maori culture the women were expected to be subservient to the men, and did not have much say in most things? Again, I dont know a helluva lot abouut Maori culture... but I somehow doubt whether most modern Maori women would want to return to this little aspect of Maoriness?

I agree that where land and stuff was taken away from communities, resulting in large scale destitution, this should be returned - but again it is problematic in that how do urban 1/16th Maori's lay claim to their share?

Eventually, at some stage, someone has to call time on how much reparations are going to go on. Because there will always be more hands outstretched, wanting more, and having some sort of angle.

[Banditbandit]

Forgive my lack of local history. i have heard that Maori's were not happy because it was not really a "partnership" as they expected. But I understand that a true partnership in those days would have involved both the white governors and Maori kings/chiefs taking joint decisions together, and Maoris and Pakeha's living separate lives apart from each other? Am i right? So, in other words, a separate system with separate rules and laws for the Maoris /Pakeha in which everybody coexists? And keeping the Maori cultures and traditions alive in separate areas? But this sounds a bit like apartheid TBH...

Yes - that's not a bad summary - with the obvious flaws for today's world ... we don't want Apartheid (well, most of us don't) we are intermarried and living in the cities - the question we face is "What does contemporary Māori culture lok like?" - and only we can answer that, not the Pākehā

And this is what the exremists still want?

Yes, some of the extremeists do seem to want that. But there are extremists in all cultures and they don't always get what they want (I feel a Stones Song coming on here ...)

If this is true - I have to question whether most modern Maori (at least the ones that I have met) would want to still be subject to a local monarch or chief (I understand there was no Paramount chief to speak of? I may be wrong)? With no vote?

I doubt it - democracy is still the best system human beings have invented for governance of a country - it's not perfect but we can improve it.

My feeling is that if the modern Maori want to be free Maori with a vote, and living in a modern demorcratic system, then they should stop this pushing for a 'return to Maori ways', and join the rest of us in society as equals...

Agreed. It's what joining the rest as equals means that the argument is about.

Also, I undertand that in the past, in traditional Maori culture the women were expected to be subservient to the men, and did not have much say in most things? Again, I dont know a helluva lot abouut Maori culture... but I somehow doubt whether most modern Maori women would want to return to this little aspect of Maoriness?

Probably not true - we don't really know what it was like int he past as the anthropologists and ethnographers saw what they wanted to see - and they were very patriacal themselves - rememebr the fight for women tyo vote was in the late 19th century ...

There have been strong women Māori leaders inthe past - I beleive the patriachy was adopted from European cultures - it was not part of our culture - it was learnt from the Pākehā.

I agree that where land and stuff was taken away from communities, resulting in large scale destitution, this should be returned - but again it is problematic in that how do urban 1/16th Maori's lay claim to their share?

Let us sort out who are members of our iwi and hapu ... that's our decision and should not be used as part of the argument to delay settlement.

Eventually, at some stage, someone has to call time on how much reparations are going to go on. Because there will always be more hands outstretched, wanting more, and having some sort of angle.

Hmmm .. yes, agreed. At present the treaty settlement money is largely going to help our people (I accept a few instances of greed and fuck ups) ... again, let us sort that out. With the financial resources we can reduce the number of people with their hands out ourselves ... we are trying here, on limited resources.

I don't know how we "call time" as you say - one part of me wants to say that as long as there are justified grievances then we can't call time .. another part of me recognises the reality fo the countrry we all live in .. dunno about this one ... it's a good point .. when will Māori be satisfied? Unfortunately right now my answer is "who knows?" ...

However, it is not up to Pākehā to "call time" alone ... there4 are two sides to this ...

[MSTRS:Me]

However, it is not up to Pākehā to "call time" alone ... there4 are two sides to this ...

Actually, there are three...
White, Maori and the Truth

[JimO]

i have taken to listening ti Jt and Willie of an afternoon as im toiling away at work and had to larf today a maori chap rang complaining about asians coming here taking "our" jobs, perhaps he should set his sights a bit higher but the truth probably was that he was happily on the benefit sitting on his arse getting paid to do nothing