National slashing bureaucratic jobs

[shrub]

Shrub is saying..
"When I want your opinion, I'll give it to you"

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you're saying "We're not all as open to manipulation like you think we are"

I'm with YOU on this one! Most marketers are serial underachievers with too higher opinion of themselves....

No, what Shrub is saying is that Ocean happily admits he knows very little about marketing and how marketers influence the behaviour of people, and therefore it's very hard to believe he is somehow immune from being influenced by mechanisms he doesn't know even exist. I'm probably much more likely not to be influenced because i know the tactics and strategies used, therefore I am able to recognise them when they're being implemented. Kind of like a mechanic is much more likely to know when their bike is running well.

Ocean is essentially saying "I am never influenced by marketing, primarily because I'm an engineer". Unfortunately I can point you to a heap of research that shows all humans are able to be influenced and manipulated, including engineers.

[shrub]

Tenuous relationship there at best I reckon.

I guess you know of ways to gain knowledge other than by learning - Neo in the Matrix took pills, maybe you sleep with a book under your pillow or because you're an engineer you automatically know everything (funny, when I was an aircraft engineer I spent hours studying - I must be stupid). Unfortunately the only way I know to gain knowledge and skill is to spend a hell of a lot of time reading, researching, analysing, interpreting, reporting and being taught by people who know more than me. Like I said, I must be stupid because that's hard work. I'd be stoked if you could share your secret of gaining knowledge without an education.

Compared to, say wisdom?

Wisdom is something that comes with time and usually follows a desire to understand. By your own admission you don't understand how marketers work, and have no desire to gain that understanding. Every day those devious underachievers expose you to a vast number of messages from a wide array of sources, and those messages all contribute to the way all of us form our opinions and values, from our political opinions, how and what we consume to how we relate to others.

A wise man would want to understand how this, do you not think? Or do you subscribe to the philosophy that ignorance is bliss?

As recommended by Consumer?

No, the steak was recommended by the butcher and the wine is one that was given a good review in cuisine by a wine writer who I generally agree with. I know it's foolish to listen to experts, and you probably automatically know which wines are good wines, but sadly I haven't been an engineer for over 20 years.

[Ocean1]

Ocean is essentially saying "I am never influenced by marketing, primarily because I'm an engineer". Unfortunately I can point you to a heap of research that shows all humans are able to be influenced and manipulated, including engineers.

No, it just gives me a small head start in comparing a product with whatever claims are made for it.

Unfortunately the only way I know to gain knowledge and skill is to spend a hell of a lot of time reading, researching, analysing, interpreting, reporting and being taught by people who know more than me.

I’m sure some of that still happens in some of our education institutions. Somewhere.

By your own admission you don't understand how marketers work, and have no desire to gain that understanding.

Oh I’m not utterly ignorant, given the volume of marketing traffic it’d be difficult to be as oblivious to the various techniques employed as I’d like to be. And that’s rather the point I was trying to make, I’d like to be a lot less imposed upon by unsolicited bullshit.

Every day those devious underachievers expose you to a vast number of messages from a wide array of sources, and those messages all contribute to the way all of us form our opinions and values, from our political opinions, how and what we consume to how we relate to others.

Fair enough, if you’re dealing with opinions and values. I tend to avoid that as much as possible when looking for facts. Marketing influence may well make that more difficult than it might otherwise be, but nonetheless I do my best.

sadly I haven't been an engineer for over 20 years.

A point on which I’m somewhat grateful, given that I occasionally have need to fly in aeroplanes. I’d be disturbed to know that the person responsible for it’s continued airworthiness might consider it easier and cheaper to simply convince me that the plane was a nice shade of yellow and the flight attendants extraordinarily sexy rather than actually get his hands dirty.

[admenk]

and the flight attendants extraordinarily sexy rather than actually get his hands dirty.

Why not combine the two and have extraordinarily dirty sexy flight attendants

[shrub]

I remembered a previous comment of yours back at post #53:

Advertise at me all you like, those clever fuckers aren't as clever as you might believe. I'm an engineer, I know how stuff should be made and I know how much it costs to make. When I see prices associated with products that are obviously blown out of proportion by advertising budgets, (or anything else) I make a note not to buy that product.

I have to say I am incredibly impressed by the depth of knowledge you display - I have an idea how much it costs to make some stuff, but as a percentage of what i use and consume it's minimal. To know how much it costs to make everything you buy is very, very impressive, but how do you know how much of the margin the retailer has placed on that good is marketing, how much is freight (silly me, you probably know how much it costs to freight everything from anywhere), how much is marketing and how much is simply profit. Give you admit to knowing nothing about advertising, I somehow doubt you know what percentage of a product's cost is their marketing.

Like you, there are some products that are ridiculously overpriced, and you pay a lot of money for the name - Levis jeans, Apple MP3 players and Harley Davidson Motorbicycles spring to mind. I commend you for not purchasing these products, although they are all very good quality, and often the best in their class. This position, while admirable, means you will be often purchasing second best products.

And that leads me to another comment you made:

There's a bunch of manufacturers on my shit list. Some of them are there because they once sold me crap, some are there because their advertising or their corperate ethics are offensive. I wonder if any of them are your clients.

I honestly thought you never bought crap, but I guess you're just like the rest of us there. However I was interested that there are some companies who's products you won 't buy because of their advertising. I thought advertising didn't influence you? Would you not buy something because you disliked the company's advertising, even if it was the best quality and best value option?

[shrub]

I’m sure some of that still happens in some of our education institutions. Somewhere.

Yes, quite a lot, especially in the liberal arts, hard sciences and at postgraduate level at universities.

Oh I’m not utterly ignorant, given the volume of marketing traffic it’d be difficult to be as oblivious to the various techniques employed as I’d like to be. And that’s rather the point I was trying to make, I’d like to be a lot less imposed upon by unsolicited bullshit.

Fair enough, if you’re dealing with opinions and values. I tend to avoid that as much as possible when looking for facts. Marketing influence may well make that more difficult than it might otherwise be, but nonetheless I do my best.

You do your best not to be influenced by advertising and make your decisions rationall, something most smart people do, but you're as vulnerable to the machinations of PR and marketing people as anyone, including me.

A point on which I’m somewhat grateful, given that I occasionally have need to fly in aeroplanes. I’d be disturbed to know that the person responsible for it’s continued airworthiness might consider it easier and cheaper to simply convince me that the plane was a nice shade of yellow and the flight attendants extraordinarily sexy rather than actually get his hands dirty.

Sadly the aircraft I worked on were either camoflage painted or white and grey (Andovers and P3 Orions), and in those days the crew were all ugly looking blokes.

[Ocean1]

I have to say I am incredibly impressed by the depth of knowledge you display - I have an idea how much it costs to make some stuff, but as a percentage of what i use and consume it's minimal. To know how much it costs to make everything you buy is very, very impressive, but how do you know how much of the margin the retailer has placed on that good is marketing, how much is freight (silly me, you probably know how much it costs to freight everything from anywhere), how much is marketing and how much is simply profit. Give you admit to knowing nothing about advertising, I somehow doubt you know what percentage of a product's cost is their marketing.

How knowledgeable do you need to be to understand that a pair of designer sunglasses didn’t cost anywhere near the $600 asking price to manufacture? I simply don’t care to buy products that have associated marketing costs of several hundred times that of the actual product value.

Like you, there are some products that are ridiculously overpriced, and you pay a lot of money for the name - Levis jeans, Apple MP3 players and Harley Davidson Motorbicycles spring to mind. I commend you for not purchasing these products, although they are all very good quality, and often the best in their class. This position, while admirable, means you will be often purchasing second best products.

The only value I see in a name is it’s history in supplying me with quality products at what I consider a reasonable cost. A brand I’ve had no experience with is only going to build that history if the product turns out to be worth the asking price. If Levi et al can make a product that meets those requirements in spite of having spent a lot on their “name” then I’m happy. If they spend a lot on branding their product and I find it’s a steaming pile of excrement then I simply don’t support them any further. Might be unusual behaviour in today’s consumer but I don’t think it’s all that radical.

I honestly thought you never bought crap, but I guess you're just like the rest of us there. However I was interested that there are some companies who's products you won 't buy because of their advertising. I thought advertising didn't influence you? Would you not buy something because you disliked the company's advertising, even if it was the best quality and best value option?

Of course I’ve bought crap, I’m not infallible. But I’ve only ever bought crap from a supplier once. And if any supplier behaves like those with whom I’ve had bad experiences previously then why the hell would I want to deal with them either?

[shrub]

How knowledgeable do you need to be to understand that a pair of designer sunglasses didn’t cost anywhere near the $600 asking price to manufacture? I simply don’t care to buy products that have associated marketing costs of several hundred times that of the actual product value.

Hmmm, you really don't understand marketing, do you? Or much about business I'm willing to bet. The $600.00 price of a pair of Bvlgari or Prada sunglasses does not reflect the marketing costs of those sunglasses. In fact, you will find that the super-premium brands spend virtually nothing on marketing because they don't need to.

The ridiculous price is partly a reflection of the value the customer gains from wearning them. When you buy sunnies like that, you're either super rich and $600.00 is not even milk money, or you want people to think you're super rich and/or a sophisticated consumer. When your friends see you with them on, they are impressed and want to have sex with you.

It's called capitalism and the free market, and yes it's silly, but selling shit for far more than it's worth is a vital component of that charming model. Just like encouraging people to buy shit they don't need, don't even really want and certainly can't afford. BTW if you can't afford it, we have finance available with very affordable payments.

[Pussy]

Hmmmm... I'm missing something here.
If I see someone with a $600.00 pair of sunnies, I think "what a pretentious wanker"...

[mashman]

Hmmmm... I'm missing something here.
If I see someone with a $600.00 pair of sunnies, I think "what a pretentious wanker"...

I'm usually too busy looking at her tits

[Ocean1]

When your friends see you with them on, they are impressed and want to have sex with you.

Perhaps that explains any misapprehension. Charming as they are I don't have too many friends I'd spend $600 to have sex with. The few I'd consider worth the price wouldn't be friends if they were impressed by $600 dollar sunnies.

It's called capitalism and the free market, and yes it's silly, but selling shit for far more than it's worth is a vital component of that charming model. Just like encouraging people to buy shit they don't need, don't even really want and certainly can't afford. BTW if you can't afford it, we have finance available with very affordable payments.

How on earth can misrepresenting a product be considered a key element of capitalism? It might recently have paid dividends in terms of a return on expenditure but dishonest behaviour isn’t an exclusive feature of capitalism, and usury has been around since before the term capitalism was even coined.

[shrub]

How on earth can misrepresenting a product be considered a key element of capitalism?

There you go back to misrepresenting stuff. A $600 pair of sunglasses doesn't misrepresent anything - they are well made high quality sunglasses that have a little label somewhere that people who are into that kind of shit recognise. They don't claim to allow time travel, to turn water into Bolly or even to make the wearer a better person. All they are is what they look like - sunglasses with a label that says "expensive".

You really must try to be a little less paranoid - everyone isn't constantly trying to deceive you.

[SPman]

Originally Posted by shrub
......... and education and knowledge...

Tenuous relationship there at best I reckon.

Absofuckinglutely.

[shrub]

Absofuckinglutely.

How do you gain knowledge if not by being taught stuff? All my life I've worked my arse off to gain skills and knowledge by doing an apprenticeship, doing courses, being trained by other people, practicing the stuff I've learnt and going to university. At university the idiots in charge expected me to read, research, analyse, test, experiment and then report on what I had found out. It's been fucking hard work, has s taken many years and a shitload of money to get where I am, yet you and Ocean seem to know I'd love to find an easy way to gain knowledge and skills, and I would love to learn your secrets.

I'd love to learn a heap more stuff, so can you guys tell me how you gain knowledge without an education? Is there a pill I can take like in the Matrix? Or do you wave crystals over your heads, sleep on books or is knowledge hereditory? How much do you want for your secrets?