National slashing bureaucratic jobs

[Number One]

Proper management is about handling people, not
money...

Leadership benchstrength in NZ is shite...lots of opportunities for those that 'get it'...unfortunately though not enough organisations yet really value the behaviours and skills required of good 'LEADER' and so they don't target those for recognition and are not yet truely effective at developing these either...also remember the behaviour that gets rewarded gets repeated....guess what's being rewarded (and what isn't) in many of our organisations currently (private and PS)

[mashman]

And therein lies a problem - most people need their jobs to just survive and simply can't afford to rock the boat

Very true and having the wrong people in the wrong jobs for the wrong reasons isn't really a breeding ground for continuity, stability, excellence etc... From personal experience, I find that most of the companies I have worked for spent 99% of their time and resource generating revenue and 1% keeping an eye on business process and staffing. The real fun starts when they implement new software ...

[shrub]

Not aware? How arrogant.

Advertise at me all you like, those clever fuckers aren't as clever as you might believe. I'm an engineer, I know how stuff should be made and I know how much it costs to make. When I see prices associated with products that are obviously blown out of proportion by advertising budgets, (or anything else) I make a note not to buy that product.

There's a bunch of manufacturers on my shit list. Some of them are there because they once sold me crap, some are there because their advertising or their corperate ethics are offensive. I wonder if any of them are your clients.

No mate, I'm not arrogant, I simply know a bit about marketing and how it works. Marketing is not simply advertising just as engineering isn't just using a welder and a hacksaw. You are being marketed to all the time and modern marketers often barely use advertising. Have you seen a logo for the ASB today? Do you know what colour it is? Could you recognise that colour again? Did you know that colour triggers subconcious feelings in people who see it qne that the ASB have been marketing to both of us?

And is John Key an astute businessman who was raised in a state house by a solo mum, and does he have the 'common touch' yet understands how the average Kiwi business owner works and his concerns? Are the National party a business friendly party with a better understanding of what businesses need to succeed than Labour? The odds are good you answered yes, and that's because National's agency worked very hard to create those perceptions (which are not exactly false, but certainly exaggerated_. They didn't simply use ads, they used a hundred other mechanisms to create these perceptions in the minds of their publics.

Have you noticed that Bob Parker now appears with the sleeves of his famous yellow parka rolled up? Did you know that was done intentionally, and he was advised to do that by his publicists, and people know think he's rolling up his sleeves and getting stuck in.

Sorry mate, marketing is a highly developed and very, very sophisticated game and marketers get paid a lot of money because they can change consumer behaviour. If you are not influenced by marketers you are probably the only man in the world who has that luxury. I certainly am, and I know most of their tricks.

[Ocean1]

Twins ffs...

[Ocean1]

The odds are good you answered yes

I did not. I’m not exaggerating, dude, I can hear / see manipulative behaviour fucking miles away, I ignore it. I learned that, like a lot of good lads from ignoring my mother, and compared to her you lot are rank amateurs.

Sorry mate, marketing is a highly developed and very, very sophisticated game and marketers get paid a lot of money because they can change consumer behaviour. If you are not influenced by marketers you are probably the only man in the world who has that luxury. I certainly am, and I know most of their tricks.

I’m sure it’s exponents believe so. I am aware that sales figures reflect success in some attempts at changing consumer behaviour. But I’m not a typical consumer, and for me modern marketing methodology is usually annoyingly obvious. Don’t make the mistake of believing that others are necessarily less sophisticated or their perceptions less accurately developed.

[Deano]

Mmmmmmm this is getting entertaining

[Delerium]

Not aware? How arrogant.

Advertise at me all you like, those clever fuckers aren't as clever as you might believe. I'm an engineer, I know how stuff should be made and I know how much it costs to make. When I see prices associated with products that are obviously blown out of proportion by advertising budgets, (or anything else) I make a note not to buy that product.

There's a bunch of manufacturers on my shit list. Some of them are there because they once sold me crap, some are there because their advertising or their corperate ethics are offensive. I wonder if any of them are your clients.

out of curiosity, do you have any exmples of the manufacturers?

[shrub]

I did not. I’m not exaggerating, dude, I can hear / see manipulative behaviour fucking miles away, I ignore it. I learned that, like a lot of good lads from ignoring my mother, and compared to her you lot are rank amateurs.


I’m sure it’s exponents believe so. I am aware that sales figures reflect success in some attempts at changing consumer behaviour. But I’m not a typical consumer, and for me modern marketing methodology is usually annoyingly obvious. Don’t make the mistake of believing that others are necessarily less sophisticated or their perceptions less accurately developed.

I'm sure you're an extremely sophisticated and highly developed chap, (after all, you are an engineer), and you're probably right that you are significantly smarter and more astute than I am; but you're a human (despite being an engineer). Humans (even engineers) are influenced by stimuli in generally predictable ways, and marketers use that ability to be influenced to shape attitudes and from there to alter behavioural patterns.

However despite your assertions that you are above being influenced by marketer's wiles, your belief that because you don't use information contained in advertising to make your buying decisions you are therefore not influenced in the slightest bit by marketing suggests that your understanding of marketing is probably a little limited. Advertising is only a single component of marketing a business because in a modern and sophisticated marketplace (you're not the only person who uses objective data to make decisions, believe me) it takes a lot more than simply saying "we're here and we sell nails and string" to build market share.

I know you have a very low opinion of those shysters and tricksters who use the smoke and mirrors of marketing to confuse and influence those more naive and stupid than you, but you may be surprised how clever some of my colleagues are. Some may even be smarter than you because superior intellect is not confined to the engineering profession, and may even have been more persuasive than your sainted mother.

[Ocean1]

out of curiosity, do you have any exmples of the manufacturers?

Yes.

But I'm not advertising them, It'd be annoying.

[shrub]

Yes.

But I'm not advertising them, It'd be annoying.

I hate to say it, but everyone has certain companies they won't deal with. Even the supremely gullible.

[Ocean1]

your belief that because you don't use information contained in advertising to make your buying decisions you are therefore not influenced in the slightest bit by marketing suggests that your understanding of marketing is probably a little limited.

Probably. A lack I'm pleased to extend to the field in detail.

I know you have a very low opinion of those shysters and tricksters who use the smoke and mirrors of marketing to confuse and influence those more naive and stupid than you, but you may be surprised how clever some of my colleagues are. Some may even be smarter than you because superior intellect is not confined to the engineering profession, and may even have been more persuasive than your sainted mother.

Oh I'm sure they're absolutely bristling with PhDs and MBAs and whatnot, whereas I can't see much further through a brick wall than average, but I do value quality products and I've learned the very best way to find them starts with completely eliminating any influence the manufacturer has in that decision.

As for subconscious uptake of supposedly ingenious subliminal marketing... if my preferences are at all coloured by such then you guys have the strangest ideas about what your employers might have me want. And at the risk of using the repetitive reinforcement thing you guys apparently invented and perfected I’ll say again that an army of interested opinion will affect the quality and value of any product or service not a jot, it simply wastes resources better spent elsewhere.

[Ocean1]

I hate to say it, but everyone has certain companies they won't deal with. Even the supremely gullible.

I'm learning that characteristic of marketing dudes, that they hate disseminating falsehood.

[shrub]

Probably. A lack I'm pleased to extend to the field in detail.




Oh I'm sure they're absolutely bristling with PhDs and MBAs and whatnot, whereas I can't see much further through a brick wall than average, but I do value quality products and I've learned the very best way to find them starts with completely eliminating any influence the manufacturer has in that decision.

As for subconscious uptake of supposedly ingenious subliminal marketing... if my preferences are at all coloured by such then you guys have the strangest ideas about what your employers might have me want. And at the risk of using the repetitive reinforcement thing you guys apparently invented and perfected I’ll say again that an army of interested opinion will affect the quality and value of any product or service not a jot, it simply wastes resources better spent elsewhere.

I'm sure you're right and education and knowledge are vastly overrated. And on that note, I have a glass of superb merlot and a thick, rare steak waiting for me, and much as I enjoy debating with you, meat and alcohol are always impossible to resist.

[Pussy]

I'm learning that characteristic of marketing dudes, that they hate disseminating falsehood.

Shrub is saying..
"When I want your opinion, I'll give it to you"

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you're saying "We're not all as open to manipulation like you think we are"

I'm with YOU on this one! Most marketers are serial underachievers with too higher opinion of themselves....

[Ocean1]

I'm sure you're right and education and knowledge...

Tenuous relationship there at best I reckon.

... are vastly overrated.

Compared to, say wisdom?

Absofuckinglutely.

And on that note, I have a glass of superb merlot and a thick, rare steak waiting for me

As recommended by Consumer?