Wellington City Council, parking charges. MAG-NZ correspondence

[NONONO]

Our Wellington Rep talking to WCC this week.
The responses have been staggering.
StonY, as you seem to be on his mailing list, can you give him a heads up, before we give him a kick up the arse.

Reprinted below, with my final addition as of tonight.

To



Stephen Carruthers

Transport Planner
Infrastructure
Wellington City Council

DDI (04) 803 8699
Cell 021 2278699





My dear Mr Carruthers.

I refer to your email correspondence with a fellow member of MAG-NZ, reproduced below.


Anthony,

The reason these things have been looked at is due to the question, "why should motorcyclists get free all day parking when no other mode does". People argue that motorcycling should be encouraged for environmental reasons, however I have seen no evidence to back that up. If, as the research shows, motorcycling is less safe and less environmentally friendly should motorcycling be encouraged above any other mode of transport.

Kind Regards,

Stephen Carruthers

Transport Planner
Infrastructure
Wellington City Council

DDI (04) 803 8699
Cell 021 2278699
Stephen.Carruthers@wcc.govt.nz





From: Wellington MAG [mailto:wellington@mag-nz.org]
Sent: Tuesday, 22 March 2011 11:43 p.m.
To: Stephen Carruthers
Subject: Re: Wellington parking


Hi Stephen

In that case can I take it you are also investigating the accident stat’s for cyclists, cars and buses, along with investigating where the responsibility for the accident falls. Could you also for my own interest elaborate on the reasoning behind collating this information and explain the actual bearing this has on provisioning of parking spaces. As on the face of it, it seems an odd statistic to take into consideration for the purpose at hand.
Apologies if this comes across as a negative response to your question, that is not my intention, I just want to understand the process you are going through.

Kind regards
Anthony
Motorcycle Action Group of NZ Inc
www.mag-nz.org
www.cheesecutter.co.nz
www.nzrav.org



From: Stephen Carruthers
Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2011 12:42 PM
To: 'Wellington MAG'
Subject: RE: Wellington parking

Hello Anthony,

It does not hold huge significance, but is rather is part of the background information on the mode of transport in general. I have been using information from the CAS database which comes from the police reports. Yes I have numbers of the increase in motorcycles use and that is taken into account. Cheers.

Kind Regards,

Stephen Carruthers

Transport Planner
Infrastructure
Wellington City Council

DDI (04) 803 8699
Cell 021 2278699
Stephen.Carruthers@wcc.govt.nz


From: Wellington MAG [mailto:wellington@mag-nz.org]
Sent: Monday, 21 March 2011 6:39 p.m.
To: Stephen Carruthers
Subject: Re: Wellington parking


Hi Stephen

Can you confirm two things, firstly since we are talking about the issues surrounding parking in Wellington, where is the relevance in motorcycle crash statistics and secondly what is the source for your information on such statistics and have you taken into consideration the increases in the number of registered motorcycles in Wellington.

Kind regards
Anthony
Motorcycle Action Group of NZ Inc
www.mag-nz.org
www.cheesecutter.co.nz
www.nzrav.org



From: Stephen Carruthers
Sent: Friday, March 18, 2011 11:52 AM
To: mailto:byron.cummins@dulux.co.nz
Cc: Paul Ellen ; brent.hutchison@dia.govt.nz ; 'Anthony Foreman' ; Jon Visser
Subject: RE: Wellington parking

Hello,

At our meeting it was agreed that the motorcycling groups would provide us with information on crash data and environmental issues as it was stated there was contrary information to what we have. If that information is available I would be interested in obtaining it so that I can incorporate into any further work that I do. Cheers.

Kind Regards,

Stephen Carruthers

Transport Planner
Infrastructure
Wellington City Council

DDI (04) 803 8699
Cell 021 2278699
Stephen.Carruthers@wcc.govt.nz


Mr Carruthers,

I would ask you to please confirm the above as a true record of your correspondence with our Wellington representative.

Could you also provide me with contact details for your direct superior/direct report at WCC.

Thank you in advance.

[NONONO]

Seems Mr Carruthers thinks it is 2009 and not 2011...
How many fkin times do we have to deal with the same shit from the same shitheads?
Sorry Brent, but really, if this is the level of awareness that the WCC have regarding these issues...that's bloody poor from the largest bikers rights organization in Wellington (currently).
We need to talk about how we work together better, and no more bullshit.

[Hitcher]

It seems to me that MAG-NZ is wasting Council time and chasing red herrings that have little relevance on the issue in question, vehicle safety being one such red herring.

The issue, as I understand it, is one of equity. People who bring cars into the city have to pay for the priviledge. It costs money to provide parking space, particularly for vehicles that spend all day in them. This is either a cost to the ratepayer or to the owner of that space, or to the owner of the vehicle, if a charge is levied.

Motorcycles may be smaller than cars, but they still require room to store. The cost per vehicle may be less than for a car, but there is still a cost. Council has to weigh the benefits of allowing unfettered motorcycle parking with the cost of that. The cost is complex as it also involves such things as congestion which has implications for the city's roading and public transport network.

MAG-NZ would be better to pursue a discussion along those lines rather than wasting time on an ultimately unwinnable "my accident stats are better than yours" debate. And that discussion would be better had with elected Councillors, rather than with Council officers, as this is ultimately a policy matter involving politicical trade-offs.

Threatening Council officers is never a good look. Anybody who does that has generally lost the argument or the point.

[NONONO]

As usual Hitcher, you manage to miss the point, deliberately I would suggest, wide of the mark.
The point of this post, glaringly obvious to all but your good self, is that WCC and it's road planning and transport division appear amazingly ignorant of the issues.
It appears that senior officials of WCC have taken little notice of the 2 year debate and are asking questions that anyone, who has taken the time to research even the briefest of information themselves, (your good self excluded) would find laughable at this point.
The WCC is arguing accident stats, not MAG-NZ. We are are pointing out that accident stats have NO bearing on this issue, you appear to think differently.
You still don't get it.
After all this time, after all this debate, I for one can not waste one more breath on such as you.

[IdunBrokdItAgin]

It was my understanding that the current free parking for motorbikes concession was due to the the fact that all "pay and display" parking spaces in wellington require a ticket to be displayed on the vehicle.

As motorbikes are unable to securely display a ticket (mainly due to wind and theft), and hence are unable to uitliise pay and display spaces, the free motorbike parking spaces were given as a concession.

Not being funny here but I really think you should have re-iterated this point to the council officer in your first e-mail rather than getting caught up in the "which mode of transport is better" argument.

I doubt that WCC wishes to change back to a parking meter system, as the loss of revenue alone (when compared to pay and display) would probably be far in excess of the loss of the revenue opportunity from the motorbike parking concession.
They must have calculated this the first time around and these calculations should still hold true.

[Paul in NZ]

Yes - the costs for parking are 'complex' and yes it is expensive to provide BUT without the provision of the right resources for parking the city would become a wasteland and all retail and most ofice activity would become mostly untenable.

The council needs to provide the correct mix of parking and public transport for the city to thrive.

The question is, or at least should be - how much does free parking for motorcycles actually cost to provide vs how much economic activity do they generate?

However - the real issue will be that there is a motocycle hater or someone who has identified a soft group to target inside the wider group of private transport users and now its become 'an issue'... Yippee...

[The Baron]

On one day, every motorcycle in Wellington should park in one car park. Same price?

[pzkpfw]

On one day, every motorcycle in Wellington should park in one car park. Same price?

Which spaces? You realise the multi-bay parks are banned for bikes?

[bogan]

Not being funny here but I really think you should have re-iterated this point to the council officer in your first e-mail rather than getting caught up in the "which mode of transport is better" argument.

Good point, however putting the wellington transport planner right so he doesn't come up with other schemes to keep bikers out is a task worth doing too I think.

[Ocean1]

Yes - the costs for parking are 'complex'

They might be, if they were based on the cost of supply in a competitive market. They’re not, of course, and there’s just one variable an effective monopoly needs to quantify in order to price their product: the highest price the captive market will stand.

The question is, or at least should be - how much does free parking for motorcycles actually cost to provide vs how much economic activity do they generate?

The question might normally be “how much will the motorcycle parking market pay”, as above. However, the council answered the price question when they accepted a quote for car parking systems unsuitable for motorcycles and offered free parking as a sort of sop instead. Free. Anathema to the commercial monopoly. It was never going to survive.

So now they want their cake, (cheap parking control systems) and they want to eat it too, (charge motorcycles as much as the market will bear, same as everyone else). Like any other monopoly they’re behaving in a way that would see any normal commercial entity fail, rapidly and without hope of survival. It’s our civic duty to thwart any monopolistic gouging practices and to hold them to account for any breach of the original deal in regard to free motorcycle parking in any manner available to us, the customer.

[BMWST?]

Yes - the costs for parking are 'complex' and yes it is expensive to provide BUT without the provision of the right resources for parking the city would become a wasteland and all retail and most ofice activity would become mostly untenable.

The council needs to provide the correct mix of parking and public transport for the city to thrive.

The question is, or at least should be - how much does free parking for motorcycles actually cost to provide vs how much economic activity do they generate?

However - the real issue will be that there is a motocycle hater or someone who has identified a soft group to target inside the wider group of private transport users and now its become 'an issue'... Yippee...

this is the crux off the issue.The only arguement that has any relevance is that 1 motorcycle takes up less space in the system than one car.logic also says that the typical motorcycle will have less emmisions that the typical car.(can we produce those numbers?.)
However the council dont want cars parked on the street all day,they want those spaces for temporary parking through out the day,and that makes sense.There is absolutely no reason that motorcyclists should be free(aprt from the self imposed issue for the council).The only justification is that the council sees that free (or cheaper) parking for motorcyclists has some benefits for the city.These are the arguments we have to counter or promote.
And as a Wellington ratepayer who works out of Wellington these are the issues i expect the council to look at.
Veiled threats wont do anything for the argument.
I am not sure that the pay and display argument is the only reason.When i worked in the city years and years ago(i am talking 1980),motorcycle parking was free then too.

[Smifffy]

Which spaces? You realise the multi-bay parks are banned for bikes?

Yet the council say they are going for equity?

I agree with what Hitcher posted earlier, this argument is about equity.

[Mully]

.logic also says that the typical motorcycle will have less emmisions that the typical car.(can we produce those numbers?.)

That's a slippery slope to get involved in - my 1400 uses as much petrol as a small car to commute, plus I go for rides of a weekend which I wouldn't do in a car.

Less congestion, certainly. But I wouldn't care to claim fewer emissions. I suspect someone in WCC's headquarters has congestion as a KPI for his bonus, but that no-one has emissions on their KPIs - certainly short-term.

Perhaps Wellington's motorcycling community should all forgo motorcycles for a couple of days and decide to drive (and park) into the WCC area instead to make their point. Possibly with a sign in the window to that effect so other commuters are aware of the action.

[BMWST?]

That's a slippery slope to get involved in - my 1400 uses as much petrol as a small car to commute, plus I go for rides of a weekend which I wouldn't do in a car.

Less congestion, certainly. But I wouldn't care to claim fewer emissions. I suspect someone in WCC's headquarters has congestion as a KPI for his bonus, but that no-one has emissions on their KPIs - certainly short-term.

Perhaps Wellington's motorcycling community should all forgo motorcycles for a couple of days and decide to drive (and park) into the WCC area instead to make their point. Possibly with a sign in the window to that effect so other commuters are aware of the action.

thats my point....not every car that comes in to town is a modern cat equiped efficient car,and not every bike is a 20 yr old two stroke...Thats why i said typical.Surely the average motorcycle commuter will have less impact on the enviroment than the average car commuter.

[bogan]

logic also says that the typical motorcycle will have less emmisions that the typical car.(can we produce those numbers?.)

I'm not aware of any big studies carried out on fuel efficiency/emissions, so no. Comparing those of various bikes to cars isn't up to much as there is so much variation of engine sizes/types in each class anyway. However much less weight, and smaller frontal area make a good case for bikes using less fuel (I know mine does!)