Wellington City Council, parking charges. MAG-NZ correspondence

[James Deuce]

thats my point....not every car that comes in to town is a modern cat equiped efficient car,and not every bike is a 20 yr old two stroke...Thats why i said typical.Surely the average motorcycle commuter will have less impact on the enviroment than the average car commuter.

Only from the amount of resources used to make the motorcycle, and even then when you look at some manufacturing techniques the waste byproducts are potentially less environmentally friendly than building a small, economic car.

Motorcycle emissions are more toxic than car emissions, both lightly aged motorcycles and brand new ones. There simply isn't the space to install the scrubbers cars get for their emissions control on a motorcycle. One area which is focused on heavily in emissions testing is Oxides of Nitrogen and bikes produce between 5 and 30 times as much depending on how they are operated to a car of the same cc rating. A modern 1 litre car will make a litre sportsbike look like a burning oil refinery in terms of exhaust toxicity.

If you get into the emissions fight make sure you bring all the data to the fight and be happy to concede certain points or you may find yourself clutching a broken pencil while staring down the barrel of a howitzer.

The only "fight" that can be reasonably entertained is parking congestion. Bikes are already a lot more expensive to run than a car. Add parking to the cost of running one and the council risks forcing people on bikes into cars (most bikers I know won't entertain the thought of public transport) thereby increasing the demand for car parking spaces. That may well be the ultimate outcome they are after.

[James Deuce]

I'm not aware of any big studies carried out on fuel efficiency/emissions, so no. Comparing those of various bikes to cars isn't up to much as there is so much variation of engine sizes/types in each class anyway. However much less weight, and smaller frontal area make a good case for bikes using less fuel (I know mine does!)

The frontal area argument holds no weight as a bike's cd is usually between .45 and .60, while the average small car (I've used a Hyundai i30) is .329. The less weight argument holds no weight with me personally as I've previously posted the comparative consumption and running costs between my old '05 Z750 and my '99 Ford Ka (cd of .36). The Ka beats the bike hands down, being some $2500 a year less expensive to run.

[Mully]

The only "fight" that can be reasonably entertained is parking congestion. Bikes are already a lot more expensive to run than a car. Add parking to the cost of running one and the council risks forcing people on bikes into cars (most bikers I know won't entertain the thought of public transport) thereby increasing the demand for car parking spaces. That may well be the ultimate outcome they are after.

The cynic in me wondered idly if they were trying to force people into their flash new trains (that don't work)...

Make it too hard/expensive to ride = take a car; then
Make it too congested to drive = take the train.

But a local Gummint would never be so cynical, right?

[Paul in NZ]

The cynic in me wondered idly if they were trying to force people into their flash new trains (that don't work)...

Make it too hard/expensive to ride = take a car; then
Make it too congested to drive = take the train.

But a local Gummint would never be so cynical, right?

The trains hardly come into it.

The ideal planners city would have heaps of high density housing for the workers and low density utopia for the clever and wealthy... You know, clever people like planners etc.....

Fuck them - the cunts should do their bloody job and deliver us a city we WANT that includes morons like us with thumping great motorbikes we dont need and kayaks and boats and all the other munt Kiwis want not some educated idiots MA thesis euro desire....

Dont get into arguments with them - talk to their bosses the elected ones and tell them that we the people are not bloody HAPPY and this is anti Kiwi - Kiwis bloody LIKE stupid motorbikes and we like Burt Munro and other dumb shit, tell to pull their heads outta their arses...

[bogan]

The frontal area argument holds no weight as a bike's cd is usually between .45 and .60, while the average small car (I've used a Hyundai i30) is .329. The less weight argument holds no weight with me personally as I've previously posted the comparative consumption and running costs between my old '05 Z750 and my '99 Ford Ka (cd of .36). The Ka beats the bike hands down, being some $2500 a year less expensive to run.

and air friction is proportional to Cd multiplied by area, bike area is about a quarter that of a car, so even with a higher drag co-efficient, you are still much more efficient on a bike. As I said, comparing various bikes with various cars isn't up to much because of the huge variation in both. Perhaps general opinion could be used as an indication of a broadly sampled anecdotal evidence?

[Ocean1]

flash new trains

Trains, if I might add, with, (at truely huge costs in terms of bums-on-seats revenue) dedicated bycicle storage facilities.

Wonder if the Buell will fit in there...

(that don't work)...

They work fine.

Think, dude, a politician entering a local body election and who desperately wants a public display of the sort of solid, real infrastructure he's supposedly responsible for supplying sets the delivery date with absolutely no reference to the contract schedule. What’s the likely outcome?

[Mully]

Trains, if I might add, with, (at truely huge costs in terms of bums-on-seats revenue) dedicated bycicle storage facilities.

Wasn't there something in the paper the other day that full-sized (i.e. not foldable) bicycles aren't allowed at peak time or some such? I only half read the story.....

Think, dude, a politician entering a local body election and who desperately wants a public display of the sort of solid, real infrastructure he's supposedly responsible for supplying sets the delivery date with absolutely no reference to the contract schedule. What’s the likely outcome?

Ah, I thought it was the train company setting unrealistic schedules. I stand corrected then....

TBH, I'm not 100% up to speed on the Wellington train situation apart from the rumblings I hear occassionally (should have been going on X day, but it turned to shit, etc). I seem to recall something about the power being wrong for the new ones or some such.

[Ocean1]

I seem to recall something about the power being wrong for the new ones or some such.

What, they ordered 110 volt jobbies?

The industry is hidebound by regulations a century old, but I've had a bit to do with Kiwirail's engineers, they're pretty good.

[cheshirecat]

There was a study done the UK which discovered that trains are more inefficient than cars, when you add in the cost and resources for the power they consume - I'm trying to dig it up). it would make the Welly train (I hesitate to use the word system) extremely ineffectve, especially as they seem virtually empty outside peak hours.
There is nothing stopping car drivers getting a scooter and paying for their investment within the year except for the ongoing rise in petrol, parking costs and lack of two wheeled parking space.

It's far to much for WCC to have the imagination or gumption to deal with this and act positively. And they call themselve a creative capitol!

[James Deuce]

Perhaps general opinion could be used as an indication of a broadly sampled anecdotal evidence?

It is possible that the bike's higher cd becomes an issue when you ride everywhere at 200km/hr plus. I've watched sad individuals fill up 916's every 90 kms. Still got to the destination first.

I didn't use anecdotal evidence. I collected and published my findings on KB over a 6 month period for the bike and 3 month period for the car. I also documented the wildly different consumption figures between different fuel companies.

BIke engines are not designed for economy, even the ones that supposedly are. If they were they wouldn't rev past 4,500 rpm and peak torque would be between 1500 and 2500 rpm and they'd probably be turbo-diesel.

If you really want a pissing match I'm more than happy to go and get a bunch of figures for both cars and bikes and the general conclusion will be that cars are more fuel efficient than bikes, especially considering their weight and load carrying capacity. 6.9l/100km is not a good fuel consumption figure for a 200kg bike with an 1125cc engine cruising at 100km/hr, which is what the Buell would do before I killed it. Plenty of 2 litre MPVs can do better than that

[bogan]

If you really want a pissing match I'm more than happy to go and get a bunch of figures for both cars and bikes and the general conclusion will be that cars are more fuel efficient than bikes, especially considering their weight and load carrying capacity. 6.9l/100km is not a good fuel consumption figure for a 200kg bike with an 1125cc engine cruising at 100km/hr, which is what the Buell would do before I killed it. Plenty of 2 litre MPVs can do better than that

Please do, cos I still reckon bikes are more efficient, but will change my tune if you supply enough evidence to the contrary. Make another thread for it though, no point clogging this one further.

[FJRider]

.... If, as the research shows, motorcycling is less safe and less environmentally friendly, should motorcycling be encouraged above any other mode of transport ???

As far as relevence to accident statistics goes ... that little line may explain his reasoning ... or at least an excuse for ..

[BMWST?]

ok some food for thought
http://www.transport.govt.nz/researc...stics_2010.pdf

according to this document the travel weighted average fleet member is a 2300cc 12 yr old,(this may well include motorcycles with ) an average fuel economy of 10 l per 100 k and a co2 emmisions of 230g per k
the same document implied the average motorcycle is just over 550 cc,but i couldnt find c02 emmisions date

[Hitcher]

I for one can not waste one more breath on such as you.

And people wonder why I don't join organisations like MAG. Not content with abusive bullying of Council officials, you've now started on me. Whatever happened to professionalism in the ranks of lobby groups?

If you want a scrap about this online, please let me know.

[bogan]

And people wonder why I don't join organisations like MAG. Not content with abusive bullying of Council officials, you've now started on me. Whatever happened to professionalism in the ranks of lobby groups?

So you judge groups not by what they stand for, but by their members conduct? Fuck you must have trouble come voting time