Wellington City Council, parking charges. MAG-NZ correspondence

[apes]

And there you go. It is not a right. It never has been. It would be nice if the status quo were to continue but it won't.

and if we treat it that way it never will be here, i don't mean to be overly aggressive on this matter, it's just the attitude that comes across is we've accepted we're going to pay for it but we don't want to lose anymore spaces.
whereas i want us to keep our free spaces, i accept getting more spaces without investigating using alternative areas for bike parking which works ok in other countries including Oz.
If we're saying motorbikes should have to pay, then under the same logic so should cyclists

[Smifffy]

and if we treat it that way it never will be here, i don't mean to be overly aggressive on this matter, it's just the attitude that comes across is we've accepted we're going to pay for it but we don't want to lose anymore spaces.
whereas i want us to keep our free spaces, i accept getting more spaces without investigating using alternative areas for bike parking which works ok in other countries including Oz.
If we're saying motorbikes should have to pay, then under the same logic so should cyclists

I wonder how long it will be before the council place meters on the park benches?

Is this really where you want to take your argument?

[Hitcher]

If we're saying motorbikes should have to pay, then under the same logic so should cyclists

And, under that logic, so should cars. "Free" in this context unfortunately does not mean free to ratepayers. Somebody has to pay to provide "free" amenities, in this case it's Wellington City Council ratepayers.

WCC provides little for the city's cyclists, apart from some designated cycleways. There are a few cycle racks around town, but not many. Bicycles are deemed to be good for people's health and more environmentally friendly than are vehicles reliant on internal combustion engines. I look forward to hearing an argument that puts motorcycles comparably into that space as I imagine also are the transport planners at WCC, who will be looking for measurable benefits to ratepayers and to the city's residents by providing more "free" parking for motorcycles.

Enforcing parking costs for motorcycles is probably the biggest point working in bikers' favour currently. They don't have a dashboard on which to place a paid parking slip. Wellington's winds are working well for bikers in that regard.

Remember my earlier point about the politics of this. Any change in Wellington will require a Council decision to pass a by-law. That's the territory of the city's elected Councillors, so it's best to beat up on them, rather than on their paid officers.

[Ocean1]

"Free" in this context unfortunately does not mean free to ratepayers.

I reckon there's a bunch more spaces unsuitable for cars that could be assigned to bikes at bugger all cost beyond a lick of paint.

As for the rest... congestion looks to be the biggest benefit for more motorcycle parks as far as the general populace is concerned. There must be, very aproximately zero spare car parks in the city of a business morning, a couple of hundred bikers taking their cars early of a designated day might demonstrate that.

[Virago]

...For the record MAG-NZ doesn't get in the way of our member's right to call the shots on actions they are working on, unless their actions break our rules. I reckon we may cop some flak because some disagree with our members methods or people skills etc, but it isn't a fucking popularity contest here. So to those who do get offended, just un-wad your panties and watch shit get done

A valid point - and it is natural for the self-appointed "do-ers" to feel a lttile annoyed at those they perceive to be "nay-sayers". But when proporting to be representing others, those individuals have some responsibility to at least listen to those that they claim to represent.

For what it's worth, I also think that in this instance it is completely counter-productive to threaten, antagonise and patronise the public officials they are dealing with. It will undoubtedly have the opposite effect to that intended - such bully-boy power-plays will be treated with the contempt they deserve - and I would suspect that the cause has now been damaged as a result.

I also think that it is counter-productive to transfer that abuse and antagonism onto those bikers who have genuinely and politely questioned the wisdom of such tactics.

[apes]

I wonder how long it will be before the council place meters on the park benches?

Is this really where you want to take your argument?

no the argument goes more along the lines of, specialist parking bays are provided for both cars and bikes, these bays are paid for by parking fees, hence bikes should be charged to make it a fair system. but hang on, cyclists also have specialist parking facilities, these even go as far as providing special equipment for their bikes to be locked against, as these facilities are for the purpose of other road users and for the equal treatment of all road users, the cyclists should also pay towards the maintenance of the parking facilities.

however the benches are normally provided by the parks department and as such are not their for the exclusive use of road users, in some cases it can be argued they are installed for mobility issues, so those who are less mobile on their feet can take a rest while getting around town.

getting back to the fairness of parking fees, you also need to know the answer to whether the fees just pay for the meters, as should be the case in a fair and just society or are they there to make money. if it is the former then there is a valid argument for bike parking to remain free as the cost of the road which both the car and the bike use to park on has already been paid for, in which case the parking fee is to pay for a facility that controls how long a motorist can park for which is not suitable for motorbikes. however if they are there to make money then why not just increase council rates and scrap all on street parking meters which would be a fairer scheme as all residents of greater wellington would be contributing in the same way as we all pay for the train system whether we use it or not.

[apes]

A valid point - and it is natural for the self-appointed "do-ers" to feel a lttile annoyed at those they perceive to be "nay-sayers". But when proporting to be representing others, those individuals have some responsibility to at least listen to those that they claim to represent.

For what it's worth, I also think that in this instance it is completely counter-productive to threaten, antagonise and patronise the public officials they are dealing with. It will undoubtedly have the opposite effect to that intended - such bully-boy power-plays will be treated with the contempt they deserve - and I would suspect that the cause has now been damaged as a result.

I also think that it is counter-productive to transfer that abuse and antagonism onto those bikers who have genuinely and politely questioned the wisdom of such tactics.

i think our use of words on both sides of this discussion have been inappropriate in the nature of the language used, as is often the case on forums, I have no intentions of using bully boy tactics on the council, i would just like to see a turn out by wellingtons biking fraternity, whatever you ride, to demonstrate how stongly we feel about this issue, although i am starting to get the feeling we are not singing from the same hymn sheet, i hope this is an incorrect impression

[Nasty]

And, under that logic, so should cars. "Free" in this context unfortunately does not mean free to ratepayers. Somebody has to pay to provide "free" amenities, in this case it's Wellington City Council ratepayers.

WCC provides little for the city's cyclists, apart from some designated cycleways. There are a few cycle racks around town, but not many. Bicycles are deemed to be good for people's health and more environmentally friendly than are vehicles reliant on internal combustion engines. I look forward to hearing an argument that puts motorcycles comparably into that space as I imagine also are the transport planners at WCC, who will be looking for measurable benefits to ratepayers and to the city's residents by providing more "free" parking for motorcycles.

Enforcing parking costs for motorcycles is probably the biggest point working in bikers' favour currently. They don't have a dashboard on which to place a paid parking slip. Wellington's winds are working well for bikers in that regard.

Remember my earlier point about the politics of this. Any change in Wellington will require a Council decision to pass a by-law. That's the territory of the city's elected Councillors, so it's best to beat up on them, rather than on their paid officers.

One of the interesting things is that many of the riders who use the parks are not WCC Ratepayers - but from regions outside fo that area, that are given an advantage for no cost to them or their councils at all.

[sinned]

One of the interesting things is that many of the riders who use the parks are not WCC Ratepayers - but from regions outside fo that area, that are given an advantage for no cost to them or their councils at all.

As a ratepayer I was waiting for someone to point that out. I don't like paying excessive tax or subsidizing free parking through my rates.

While I don't commute on the motorcycle I do from time to time want to find a park in Wellington CBD. I know if I take the car I will get a park and if I take the bike it will be hit and miss to find a park. Limited time parking and fees work as a means to manage car parking in the CBD.

I don't have a problem with a reasonable fee for bike parking - may keep some scooters off the road. Answer to the obvious question: NO.

[bogan]

A valid point - and it is natural for the self-appointed "do-ers" to feel a lttile annoyed at those they perceive to be "nay-sayers". But when proporting to be representing others, those individuals have some responsibility to at least listen to those that they claim to represent.

For what it's worth, I also think that in this instance it is completely counter-productive to threaten, antagonise and patronise the public officials they are dealing with. It will undoubtedly have the opposite effect to that intended - such bully-boy power-plays will be treated with the contempt they deserve - and I would suspect that the cause has now been damaged as a result.

I also think that it is counter-productive to transfer that abuse and antagonism onto those bikers who have genuinely and politely questioned the wisdom of such tactics.

I don't beleive we claim to represent anyone beyond our own membership, although this may be splitting hairs as we do try and do what is best for all bikers in NZ.

I think public officials and politicians alike need to realise we have had enough of their shit. He is obviously already anti-motorcycle biased, why shouldn't NONONO attempt to contact his superior? I do not regard this as bullying tactics, more like getting ducks in a row so any action taken isn't based on a misunderstanding (bloody common on forums and emails etc).

I agree than in-fighting is the last thing we need, chalk it up to annoyance at the 'naysayers' and move on I reckon.

[Berries]

Having also worked with central and local government, could I put up one small piece of advice. Even if you are joking, you can't post stuff like this -

pipe bombs have their use, but cause us to lose credibility with the public who lets be honest we'd rather have them on our side.

+1 on free bike parking not being a right.

[GOONR]

Having also worked with central and local government, could I put up one small piece of advice. Even if you are joking, you can't post stuff like this -

pipe bombs have their use, but cause us to lose credibility with the public who lets be honest we'd rather have them on our side.

+1 on free bike parking not being a right.

I guess you missed the post that prompted that remark...

Can't be fucked being nice any more. Pipe bombs may be in order.

[apes]

Having also worked with central and local government, could I put up one small piece of advice. Even if you are joking, you can't post stuff like this -

my mistake but when you grow up with bomb attacks in the news most days you tend to make light hearted comments.

[FJRider]

One of the interesting things is that many of the riders who use the parks are not WCC Ratepayers - but from regions outside fo that area, that are given an advantage for no cost to them or their councils at all.

And many ratepayers/residents in the area, have found/find cost free parking that is at/near their place of work. Those that haven't should look harder ... if the council persists with the user pay system re: Motorcycle parking.

[BMWST?]

no the argument goes more along the lines of, specialist parking bays are provided for both cars and bikes, these bays are paid for by parking fees, hence bikes should be charged to make it a fair system. but hang on, cyclists also have specialist parking facilities, these even go as far as providing special equipment for their bikes to be locked against, as these facilities are for the purpose of other road users and for the equal treatment of all road users, the cyclists should also pay towards the maintenance of the parking facilities.

however the benches are normally provided by the parks department and as such are not their for the exclusive use of road users, in some cases it can be argued they are installed for mobility issues, so those who are less mobile on their feet can take a rest while getting around town.

getting back to the fairness of parking fees, you also need to know the answer to whether the fees just pay for the meters, as should be the case in a fair and just society or are they there to make money. if it is the former then there is a valid argument for bike parking to remain free as the cost of the road which both the car and the bike use to park on has already been paid for, in which case the parking fee is to pay for a facility that controls how long a motorist can park for which is not suitable for motorbikes. however if they are there to make money then why not just increase council rates and scrap all on street parking meters which would be a fairer scheme as all residents of greater wellington would be contributing in the same way as we all pay for the train system whether we use it or not.

you dont pay for wellington city parking(via rates) if you dont live in wellington,but you contibute to the trains via wellington regional council.The council derives income from parking for the good of the whole city not just for the parking facilites.The money is spent on all sorts of things....low cost housing is one.