Fully qualified Sifter.
Aye. I was at Boyle Kawasaki when he did it, and he often popped in to say "Hi" when he was having the treatment done. It was WELL ugly! Problem being, especially if you loose the front....you can get a hand trapped before you know it. But I'm sure you know that...hell...we all do!Originally Posted by Oscar
Go Stoner!
Bogeyman
With apologies to Bob Hoover: If you're faced with a crash dont cheat on your machine, ride it as far into the crash as possible.
Go soothingly on the grease mud, as there lurks the skid demon
Fully qualified Sifter.
Once the fat lady has sung...I tend to want to stay as far away from my bike as possible!
Curmudgeon
I had a car turn right in front of a RZ250 I was riding years ago.
A bystander told me that I had the back wheel a foot off the ground when I hit the car. I hung on until impact and thought I'd saved it - I got that baby pulled up real smart - but I hit the car with just enough speed to put me over the bars and face first on the bonnet. I guess that because the front suspension was under full compression when I hit (and I can't have been doing more that 30km/h), the frame snapped behind the steering head
Fully qualified Sifter.
Hey...didn't Aaron wreck an RZ250 in the side of a car as well!!?? I near cut one in 1/2 with a Z1R.I had a car turn right in front of a RZ250 I was riding years ago.
A bystander told me that I had the back wheel a foot off the ground when I hit the car. I hung on until impact and thought I'd saved it - I got that baby pulled up real smart - but I hit the car with just enough speed to put me over the bars and face first on the bonnet. I guess that because the front suspension was under full compression when I hit (and I can't have been doing more that 30km/h), the frame snapped behind the steering head
Rider in training
I disagree. Emergency braking, the task of trying to bring a bike to a stop in the shortest distance, is done in a straight line.
Perhaps I am naive and too inexperienced. I'm not a great rider. I can't imagine a scenario where I would be attempting to emergency brake on a corner. You might as well just just surrender and decide where you are going to run off the road if you are planning on using braking to save your life while mid-corner. To me, if you run into a situation mid-corner, then you into a situation of planning how to best evade the danger, rather than stopping in the shortest distance possible using all the braking force you can muster.
I still do not believe it is a good practice to try and use as much braking force as you can in a corner. I can agree to using some rear brake, but I don't know if I would personally use this for an emergency scenario.
We don't drill on blipping down for emergencies. I mentioned that with regard to the comment that someone made about adjusting their brake so they could only apply it with the throttle closed - which would prevent blipping. You should be able to operate the throttle and front brake at the same time - or you simply can't blip while braking.
I'm really surprised by that comment (about how does blipping help reduce your speed quickly), especially since you have spent time on the track. I do think a track is a great place to learner blipping, and I do think it applies directly to the road, just not as intense.
With emergency braking, where you are trying to brake to a speed of zero, I advocate relying on the brakes rather than the engine to get your speed down.
However, when you are not actually trying to bring the bike to a halt, but are instead trying to set the bike up for a corner, then you tend to only use the front brake and engine braking. You are not trying to actually stop the bike, but choose a setup with a given entry and exit speed for the corner, which also involves specific gears. In this case, you will be wanting to brake with your front brake, while blipping and changing down to get into the gear you want to be in for the start of your corner set. Each blip down often leaves you near the top of your rev range, and because of this you get a significant engine braking effect (thank you compression).
Personally when I'm on the road I don't tend to ride as far up in my rev range as when I am on the road. But if I wanted to loose speed quickly, rather than blipping and changing down 1 gear, I could (revs permitting) blip and change down two gears. And thanks to the effect of compression (plus other effects that exceed my knowledge), the engine would apply a considerable braking force helping me loose a lot of speed quickly.
Bit of a ramble. But hope that explains my thinking. Like I say, there isn't one correct answer.
111000101000100010011110
Emergency braking is done whenever there is an emergency! you can't pick that it is only going to be in a straight line
I think the use of rear brake could be more critical on a corner, as you won't be applying as much front brake so there will be far less weight transfer, allowing the rear to do more work in slowing you down.
As long as you leave yourself enough of a traction 'buffer', you can identify an emergency situation mid corner, use the buffer to slow down, thus freeing up even more traction to decelerate even quicker. The notion that you should just give up and bin it is absurd.
Also, some blip, some slip the clutch, some have slipper clutches, some just bang it down, there is no requirement that blipping is always an option, it comes down to whatever the rider feels best doing, much like the use of clutch in a hard stop.
"A shark on whiskey is mighty risky, but a shark on beer is a beer engineer" - Tad Ghostal
Double shot!!
What you are referring to, is setting up cones, motorcycle, and rider, in a controlled environment, and conducting a scientific experiment. In the real world you don't get to do that. All sorts of shit leaps out in front of you on a daily basis, especially out of the city where the roads are not regularly swept by traffic.
Exactly exactly exactly!
You really need to scrub off all the speed you are able, and you need to do it early. If you are fast running out of stopping room at least your options are opening more and more as distance expires less and less rapidly as speed comes off. In the end if you are still unable to stop, you can swerve and avoid the obstacle at low speed or hit it square on and leap over it.
If your brain just doesn't work this way and you'd prefer it did, then I'd suggest you took up a fast-paced sport such as squash or paragliding, and forced yourself to think on your feet.
I think you will find racers stamp the fuck on all the brakes and just mash it down gears with the tacho hovering around redline - not quite the same way we'd treat our roadbikes, but in the end they have "emergency braking" down to a fine art - if they want to stay in front that is. For myself, I stamp on both brakes hard and keep going down gears without blipping, all the time leaving my "locked wheel" detector running.
For sure. I simply roll off the gas and one finger the front brake. Not worth the drama playing a song on the gearbox and the lean overrun jet unless she's really cute, in which case its big blue flame time!
Keep doing what you're doing! I wish there were opportunities to mentor down here, though I expect I would be bluntly excluded. Oh well.
"I am a licenced motorcycle instructor, I agree with dangerousbastard, no point in repeating what he said."
"read what Steve says. He's right."
"What Steve said pretty much summed it up."
"I did axactly as you said and it worked...!!"
"Wow, Great advise there DB."
WTB: Hyosung bikes or going or not.
Fully qualified Sifter.
I think you'll find racers caress the brakes very gently. We just squeeze 'em harder than the average street rider, due to extra traction avail etc.
And if you don't have a slipper clutch...simply banging down gears will have your back wheel hopping like a bitch if you're not blipping the throttle.
$1,101,806
Try emergency braking in a straight line...on a left hander with oncoming traffic and see where that gets you.....
Double shot!!
Yeah thats what i meant.
"I am a licenced motorcycle instructor, I agree with dangerousbastard, no point in repeating what he said."
"read what Steve says. He's right."
"What Steve said pretty much summed it up."
"I did axactly as you said and it worked...!!"
"Wow, Great advise there DB."
WTB: Hyosung bikes or going or not.
Rider in training
If you have a slipper clutch then you could just stamp down the gears, but if you don't have a slipper clutch you have to rely on your expert human feedback system to detect the rear wheel locking during a change down.
Which one of these is your "locked wheel detector"?
I don't class myself as a mentor (insufficient experience). I'm more of an organiser, and try to get experienced riders along. But sometimes there just aren't more experienced riders available on the night, so I have to step in with my limited knowledge.
If you are every on the North Shore of Auckland on a Wednesday night your welcome to come along and participate or watch, on bike or come via car and watch. If you be great to replicate the NASS idea further around the country - of bikers helping bikers.
They do have a mentor programme on KB, but I have no idea what is involved in getting on it. And as you say, it can be contentious.
GOOD ROADS, NUTHIN 2 RIDE
Gets tricky if you jump from a machine with both levers as brakes to one with a clutch, so I tend to squeeze both in emergency braking situations to cover my bases, the humour comes in relating to the foot brake I cant do the same thing on both without ending up standing up on one of them.
Last edited by Spearfish; 29th March 2011 at 09:18. Reason: forgot the "as", not that it matters
"Your talent determines what you can do. Your motivation determines how much you are willing to do. Your attitude determines how well you do it."
-Lou Holtz
Forum whore
I have experienced a mid corner emergency. I guess I must have been doing something right because my speed was such that it did not turn into a collision. I used everything I had to slow & maneuver the bike without crossing the centre line which would have been potentially fatal. I stood the bike up for maximum front braking but had it sideways so I was braking into the corner not towards the centre line.
Without the experience I had off road I doubt very much I could have done this.
Emergency braking is whatever it takes to stay upright in the circumstances. Practicing in a flat, dry, controlled environment only in a straight line is a limited set of skills.
The single biggest influence that has kept me out of the poo when my eyeballs are pressed against the visor is looking where I want to go, avoiding object fixation & going for the gap, whether it be mid corner, in the rain or avoiding city traffic. You have to ride the bike right through the incident, shaving a meter off your best stopping distance in a car park somewhere ain't worth squat when the chips are down & fate throws a load of unknowns at you.
Double shot!!
The final drive (chain!) and rear wheel gives a really loud chatter-chatter-chatter when its starting to lock up. You can quite safely practice this yourself (*standard disclaimer applies kthx) by braking harder and harder with the rear only in a straight line on a dry road. You should begin the manoevre at about 40km/hr and about 3,000rpm ish with the clutch lever fully released, and just add more and more rear brake until you get the the chatter. Normal engine operation = no skidding, chatter-chatter = starting to lock, engine goes silent = release the fucker pronto!
Well you are doing a good thing, and you must be doing other things right as well, to get invited in the first place.
Thank you, I value that greatly.
Apologies and respect to the current Mentors, but those who appoint the Mentors are more interested in cock sucking the oldskool than having anyone actually speak sound logic. Until that changes anyone who hasn't been riding for the last 75 years and is a good mate of the the hierachy is just wasting their time trying to make any valuable contribution. Anyway in the end, I should probably just go look after myself and those who love me.
Thank you for the interesting exchange! I DID manage to learn a few things there as well. I'd shake yer hand, but a friends request will have to do in the meanwhile.
Steve
"I am a licenced motorcycle instructor, I agree with dangerousbastard, no point in repeating what he said."
"read what Steve says. He's right."
"What Steve said pretty much summed it up."
"I did axactly as you said and it worked...!!"
"Wow, Great advise there DB."
WTB: Hyosung bikes or going or not.
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