General bitch (oops, I mean discussion) about bikers thread

[skippa1]

Jesus wept! Pull your head out of whatever place you have stuck it.

Yeah thats right, thats a good answer......whatever your cause.
All I will say is that the wanky method of delivering his message, is in no way endearing him to most if not all that he spurts at. Even his peers, those that moderate this message board have said (quote "His tone is abusive and condesending and that is why most people have him on ignore......As for his online comments, yes, I cringe when I read them)

[Beren]

MSTRS is correct, I'd rather listen to Katman and be a naive twat (And subconsciously heed his advice) then carry on riding uncomfortably and probably too tense. I've ridden with MSTRS before and he's a safe rider, I'd happily follow (attempt to) his bike around in the knowledge that he isn't going to do anything stupid.

Try finding a riding mentor, I won't tell you you're a knob etc, I started off by myself and I've fucked it up Finding someone experienced and safe to ride with will help a huge amount, plus you'll enjoy it more!

Good suggestion, I followed a Mentor in on my first day - and I'm going on a group ride on Saturday. Will also be getting out with the in-laws at every opportunity to get some extra mentoring. Thanks for the emphasis though - will make a point of ensuring I get some extra advice every chance I get.

[willytheekid]

Did you see his three categories. Inexperience, inattention or stupidity. Inexperience can only be addressed by experience, and how do you get that? It can only be mitigated by advice and training.
Inattention can have many causes and as it is separate from stupidity we can leave out causes like trying to text whilst riding. Sometimes the thing that is distracting is more deadly than the accident it causes. But as we are humans sometimes something small can cause inattention to something deadly, a sudden sharp pain making you let go for instance.
Stupidity, now this is the one I suspect most of his supporters think his message is about. This is the one that is most addressable.
He left out other road users and road conditions even though these feature in any SCU investigation and any insurance claim so must be important factors > 1%

HAY!...settle down, thats logic & Facts your throwing around ....can't you see KM etc don't want to acknowledge these sorts of things..."there right"!...and thats all there is to it...shheeesh!...the nerve!

[Katman]

Inexperience can only be addressed by experience,

That, and ensuring you always stay well within the level of your ability.

[avgas]

He left out other road users and road conditions even though these feature in any SCU investigation and any insurance claim so must be important factors > 1%

Not really.
He was expecting people to find this out for themselves before the matter, not after the matter. Unfortunately it never works this way......and they keep crying here "Its not my fault"

Its amazing that all these phantom objects magically appear right when a crash happens. Certainly makes the blame game easier to play.

[avgas]

That, and ensuring you always stay well within the level of your ability.

Nah not quite. You and your extremist side a little wrong here.
You can get quite experience by semi-continuously fucking up.
Sometimes you have to learn the limits of your ability by running out of airstrip a few times.......

If you don't believe me go pick up something heavy like a car. You can either
a) Say the car is too heavy and simply walk away (your limits are unknown)
b) try and lift car and pull muscle in back (you limits are NOW known)

[MSTRS:Me]

Nah not quite. You and your extremist side a little wrong here.
You can get quite experience by semi-continuously fucking up.
Sometimes you have to learn the limits of your ability by running out of airstrip a few times.......

Not quite, either...
It's true that we tend to make mistakes. If we learn from them - and survive - great. But even if we never make the same mistake twice, if we keep on making semi-continuous mistakes, the outcome is fairly obvious.
There is also some truth in the idea that you'll never improve if you don't try. And if you're not 'falling off', you're not trying. Simple, effective, and sometimes fatal.
Many mistakes are completely avoidable, by using some nous. That seems quite difficult for some people.

[Beren]

Nah not quite. You and your extremist side a little wrong here.
You can get quite experience by semi-continuously fucking up.
Sometimes you have to learn the limits of your ability by running out of airstrip a few times.......

If you don't believe me go pick up something heavy like a car. You can either
a) Say the car is too heavy and simply walk away (your limits are unknown)
b) try and lift car and pull muscle in back (you limits are NOW known)

Not sure i quite get the second part - but certainly agree with the first. There are lots of things I am being careful with, but lots of my learning is coming from small screw ups, that if they HAD happened where there had been a hazard would have caused me a happening. There but for the grace of God...

[Ocean1]

Did it ever occur to you that he doesn't want to offer specific advice re any particular situation or crash - because he wasn't there and can't know what might have been done as an alternative to achieve a better outcome?

... And therefore has no basis from which to comment whatsoever.

[MSTRS:Me]

Of course he does.
Getting in there and saying something like "You cock" is little different to someone else saying "You poor thing".
One seeks to put 'blame' on the rider and one seeks to take it away.

[skippa1]

... And therefore has no basis from which to comment whatsoever.

Amen got my vote

[Ocean1]

Of course he does.

As long as he doesn't mind that not actually having any right to an opinion but spouting bollox on the subject anyway exposes him as yet another fuckwit not worth listening to.

[Ender EnZed]

If i come round a bend and a local farmer drives his tractor out on the road right in front of me, then i'm dead and it's not my fault, no matter how you wanna look at it.
Some kind of logic here would be real good.

This scenario is entirely possible and not unlikely on any ride in rural NZ. Try not riding into the tractor, how you do that is your own business.

[Drew]

This scenario is entirely possible and not unlikely on any ride in rural NZ. Try not riding into the tractor, how you do that is your own business.

Katman believes that you should have known the tractor might be, and ridden accordingly.

Works perfectly too, until you consider that if we take that approach, we would only be able to sit on our bikes in the garage making engine noises.

There does need to be more thought going into most peoples riding, I agree with Katman on that front. There should also be an attitude shift in how most crashes are dealt with, to help speed that along.

But should we stop being sympathetic to people who have made a mistake? I don't think so. It won't help. To offer assistance, along with sound advice on where the rider and all other riders familiar with the crash, goes further to lower the chances of repeat incidents than yelling at them all.

[Katman]

Katman believes that you should have known the tractor might be, and ridden accordingly.

Works perfectly too, until you consider that if we take that approach, we would only be able to sit on our bikes in the garage making engine noises.

It would be a little retarded to blindly assume that a tractor won't be on a country road, wouldn't it Drew?

If sitting on your bike in the garage making engine noises is the only way you can feel safe on a motorcycle, best you stay there.