General bitch (oops, I mean discussion) about bikers thread

[Edbear]

Did you watch "Justice - what's the right thing to do?" on 7 per chance on Monday evening. Fooken awesome program!! Anyway politics was discussed and an interesting point came out of that. Aristotle maintained that politics was awesomeness and that to be awesome one therefore had to practise politics.
Why the need to practise? Politics can't be learnt from a book. It has to be experienced, it has to felt, to learn the nuances and subtleties you must do it. Just as a good guitar player can't simply read a book - or simply be shouted at or abused - to become a great guitar player.

Are accidents avoidable?
Sure, I venture to think all are - one way or another. But in my quest to be an awesome rider, I'm going to make a mistake or 2. That's the nature of the beast. No amount of shouting, screaming or badgering is going to change that. Some education may though.

First time I low sided (was at a track) I just biffed it (lots of fun actually). Second time I had more experience and held my knee out to prop the bike up - which worked till the peg snapped off. Third time, well I didn't low side, braced my knee the bike slid then hooked up. They didn't teach me that in a book (though I have read many).
Am I awesome? Shit no, but I'll keep trying and guess what, I'll probably make a mistake or 2 whilst I am - provided some well intentioned do gooder hasn't made the playground too safe.

Maybe your impression of what it is that would make you awesome is the problem Noel.

You don't have to be the fastest around a corner to be awesome.

It does help to be alive if you want to be awesome though.

I tend to agree in part.
If things go wrong at the track, the fault is generally with you and your actions.
On the road however, no so, very rearly would someone stick their hand up and say ''well I fucked that up didn't I''?

Practise makes perfect, sure, and the best place to practice and improve as a rider by exploring your limits is at the track. It you stuff it up there you are in the safest place to do so and most unlikely to kill and injure yourself or others. Everyone at the track is there by choice and generally for the same purpose and riding to the same conditions.

The public road is just that, a public thoroughfare with everyone going in all directions and for all purposes with widely varying skills and experience and as such the conditions are very unpredictable and should be assessed as such. Of course, there are no track fees to pay on the road and we all enjoy our bikes and riding and we are sorely tempted to wick it up from time to time.

I will confess that over 40 years of biking has seen me exceeding 160km/h many times and for long distances, generally many years ago when traffic was a lot lighter and slower than today. I've had a couple of close calls, ironically never while going that fast and have managed to never crash.

Why? I chose very deliberately where and when to do these speeds and was always aware of my surroundings and exercised caution. Those were also the days when tractors could only do less than half the speeds they can today and when droving animals on the roads was a common method of getting them from one place to the other. Sheep, cattle and horses were frequently on the main and secondary roads and overtaking lanes were rare.

Recent years have seen me reach my fastest speed ever on the road and was in suitable conditions with the only traffic being the three bikes accompanying me. My bikes have always been registered and warranted and up to standard, I've always worn the right gear, and the only accident I've ever had was exactly 12 months ago today at 8:45am in a van at less than 50km/h when I slid on oil.

My point? THINK before you wind that throttle on!

[terbang]

Perhaps the motorcycle world could also follow the lead of the medical profession and adopt the aviation safety model. It works well though it would also prove the Katmans of this world to be dinosaurs.

[Katman]

Perhaps the motorcycle world could also follow the lead of the medical profession and adopt the aviation safety model.

That sounds interesting. Care to elaborate?

[oneofsix]

Edbear you make several good points.
From reading other discussions on KB I would point out that track is not road and track practices do not always translate well to the road. But if you want to fang it use the track.
To be sarcastic, if the lycra brigade are allowed to practice for their racing whilst commuting on public roads why not the leather brigade.
I note an under current of speed doesn't kill there Edbear but this is where the Govt. is putting the effort. Easier to target than safe driving and makes better sound bytes. Personally I have had several offs but all at low speed. I too have exceeded the 160k but at a time and place where there was minimal risk.there is never no risk This is why I will still call the current speed policing a scam, 4k over on straight deserted roads makes a massive difference, pass the Tui especially when I always spot the cops policing areas which are not accident prone but everyone speeds through.

[Katman]

Perhaps the motorcycle world could also follow the lead of the medical profession and adopt the aviation safety model.

It raises an interesting point.

Does the aviation industry tolerate honest mistakes? If they do I'm sure it would be with very strict provisos. Do they tolerate mistakes through stupidity? I would imagine definitely not.

Does the medical profession tolerate honest mistakes? Once again - not lightly. Do they tolerate mistakes through stupidity? Most definitely not.

So why should motorcyclists get away with the attitude of "Meh, people die - get over it"?

[Edbear]

Edbear you make several good points.
From reading other discussions on KB I would point out that track is not road and track practices do not always translate well to the road. But if you want to fang it use the track.
To be sarcastic, if the lycra brigade are allowed to practice for their racing whilst commuting on public roads why not the leather brigade.
I note an under current of speed doesn't kill there Edbear but this is where the Govt. is putting the effort. Easier to target than safe driving and makes better sound bytes. Personally I have had several offs but all at low speed. I too have exceeded the 160k but at a time and place where there was minimal risk.there is never no risk This is why I will still call the current speed policing a scam, 4k over on straight deserted roads makes a massive difference, pass the Tui especially when I always spot the cops policing areas which are not accident prone but everyone speeds through.

Speed, per se, has never killed anyone which is why the human being has survived space travel, land speed records and so on. It's the unexpected and very sudden stop that does the damage and the faster you are going the more damage is caused if you crash. The likelihood of crashing also increases as safety margins are squeezed tighter and tighter with less time and space for making corrections, alterations and for avoidance of hazards.

Distances increase for reaction times and steering and braking inputs result in much slower alterations in one's course of travel. So the faster you are going, the more likely you are to be hurt or killed in an accident and the more likely you are to have an accident. ergo, risk increases with speed and needs to be considered and managed accordingly. Far too many riders/drivers are unsafe at even moderate speeds so driver training and education are necessary to a far greater degree than currently legislated for.

I don't blame the roads as they are generally better than they were back in the old days and both cars and bikes are far superior as regards, safety and handling than ever before so why, for example, there are so many bad accidents through the Dome Valley when the road is better than in the '70's when I was going 100mph through there daily, is solely due to driver incompetence IMHO.

[skippa1]

It raises an interesting point.

Does the aviation industry tolerate honest mistakes? If they do I'm sure it would be with very strict provisos. Do they tolerate mistakes through stupidity? I would imagine definitely not.

Does the medical profession tolerate honest mistakes? Once again - not lightly. Do they tolerate mistakes through stupidity? Most definitely not.

So why should motorcyclists get away with the attitude of "Meh, people die - get over it"?

Putting our differences to one side for a moment,
Thats not really an apples with apples comparison. Both those flying planes, and practicing medicine, go through significant training programs, costing the individual significant amounts of money over several years and they are professions that they carry out for maybe 8-10 hours a day 5 days a week once qualified?
I hazard a guess that if there were a motorcycle school that had to put every person that wanted to ride a bike through a 6 year training program and a multitude of tests or exams, then they practiced 8-10 hours a day 5 days a week, and had to do regular updates and exams, then there would be a significant reduction in crashes.
For most of us, riding a bike isnt a profession.

[Swoop]

Practise makes perfect, sure...

Perhaps that mantra should be "Perfect practice makes perfect"?

Simply practicing the same mistakes over and over again (without rectifying the problem) merely reinforces the bad habit.

[terbang]

For a start, aviation figured that by virtue of what they do, accidents and incidents (there's a new term) will happen so the thrust is to minimize the risk through procedure, training and legislation. With a major focus on threat and error management, training in human factors and behavior along with making the environment and the machines safer.

Aviation now investigates their accidents in a systemic fashion using a non blame (finger pointing) manner so that lessons can be taken. When the human factor problems are identified they are generally trained out, not legislated out.

The James Reason Swiss Cheese model shows that it is not one thing that causes an accident. When training pilots we are mainly training in the latent and active failures, where I notice a lot of the focus in threads like this is only in the active.

The old days of blaming one individual (caused by pilot error), punishing them while remaining myopic to the fact that a large piece of aluminium moving through the sky controlled by humans is always at risk of having an accident are gone. Hull losses do happen and the aim of the game is to keep it to a minimum. Aviation is also very good at putting their money where their mouth is. Safety=$ and they do spend time to discover the many causes of any incident. If we could fit 500 passengers on a motorcycle, then we too could afford a better safety system.

However the biggest influence has been with the humans. Choosing the right ones (all the gung ho has been weeded out), educating the educators who in turn educate and examine us on a regular basis.

The stats (though I hate the term) are indisputable and out there proving that the aviation industry has turned itself around. That is why the medical profession has looked towards aviation to improve safety.

[Edbear]

Perhaps that mantra should be "Perfect practice makes perfect"?

Simply practicing the same mistakes over and over again (without rectifying the problem) merely reinforces the bad habit.

True, which is where training is vital to improvement. If one doesn't know what to do they may only ever stumble upon it by accident...

[terbang]

My answers in CAPITALS (not shouting though)

It raises an interesting point.

Does the aviation industry tolerate honest mistakes? YES OF COURSE THEY DO
If they do I'm sure it would be with very strict provisos. TRAINING

Do they tolerate mistakes through stupidity I would imagine definitely not. WE CALL IT HAZARDOUS ATTITUDES BUT THAT CAN DEPEND ON MAY OTHER PRECURSORS THAT WILL ALSO NEED TO BE IDENTIFIED

Does the medical profession tolerate honest mistakes? Once again - not lightly. Do they tolerate mistakes through stupidity? Most definitely not.
DUNNO IM NOT A DOCTOR, BUT THEY ARE CURRENTLY LOOKING TOWARD AVIATION FOR SOME ANSWERS

So why should motorcyclists get away with the attitude of "Meh, people die - get over it"?
POSSIBLY AS A RESULT OF THE REALITY OF WHAT WE DO.

When I see a biker down thread, I believe that those who are lending a sympathetic ear (often vocal about cars, roads, police etc) are not mitigating the likely errors of the rider, but rather are in their own way recognizing that the rider was a victim of a systemic or chain of events that led to the accident.

[skippa1]

My answers in CAPITALS (not shouting though)


When I see a biker down thread, I believe that those who are lending a sympathetic ear (often vocal about cars, roads, police etc) are not mitigating the likely errors of the rider, but rather are in their own way recognizing that the rider was a victim of a systemic or chain of events that led to the accident.

Agreed, in fact I simplify it even further by saying that sometimes its just compassion for another human being as they have hurt themselves doing something they like.

[Katman]

but rather are in their own way recognizing that the rider was a victim of a systemic or chain of events that led to the accident.

Or they could just be conveniently turning a blind eye to the glaring fact that the number 1 contributing factor to the accident was reckless/careless management by the rider.

(And before anyone jumps up and down, I'm not saying every accident falls into that category, but many definitely do).

[Ocean1]

The James Reason Swiss Cheese model shows that it is not one thing that causes an accident.

It's a good tool eh? Useful in helping describes the real world factors contributing to any event.

Couple of points. Medical profession already use similar methodology in investigating adverse outcomes. One of the difficulties in implementing it is the propensity for the family of the affected person to assign blame, legally and otherwise. Usually without sufficient evidence. Thing is, it takes a cultural shift by everyone to make that tool work, all interested parties have to adopt the scientific method (tm) otherwise data gets hidden, distorted, mis-used and blatantly manufactured.

Secondly, both professions, (pilots and medical professionals) are pre-selected for conservative behaviour by years of skill-specific training. That’s not going to ever happen WRT general transport drivers riders.

What to do? Close off the more obvious holes without interfering too much with peoples lives and then accept that using the road means casualties.

[Ocean1]

Or they could just be conveniently turning a blind eye to the glaring fact that the number 1 contributing factor to the accident was reckless/careless management by the rider.

(And before anyone jumps up and down, I'm not saying every accident falls into that category, but many definitely do).

You might be right, but it's just your opinion.

What's FACT is that EVERY accident has many many factors that have to fall true before the accident occurs. Quite a few of those are able to be managed, some completely eliminated. Human behaviour isn't one of those. Get used to it.