General bitch (oops, I mean discussion) about bikers thread

[Katman]

so one rider side steps their hole but due to inexperience or a greater distracting factor or some other holey slice the next rider can't. Well done you've saved yourself at the expense of others. And yes you mis-read or more exactly choose what you read and ignored the rest.
Also refer Terbangs last post.

Do you really think each accident is governed by the same slices of cheese?

Everybody has the ability to step to the side within their own set of slices.

[Ender EnZed]

Though as pilots, surgeons, riders we are the last line of defence and history has proven that we aren't too good at that.

We might not be too good at it but we're still better at it than we are at changing anything else.

[oneofsix]

Do you really think each accident is governed by the same slices of cheese?

There you go, selective reading again. Try this bit "but due to inexperience or a greater distracting factor or some other holey slice the next rider can't." Part of my point is the bits that aren't the rider are the more constant problems and therefore give more bang for buck in fixing and they can't fix themselves. The rider on the other hand has a very personal reason to fix their riding and I believe you are currently trying to confuse 'The Stranger' on this subject, unsuccessfully I should add.
The rider fix has to come from within. Negativity will not assist this.
Lets fix the environment we all ride in.

[Katman]

Try this bit "but due to inexperience or a greater distracting factor or some other holey slice the next rider can't."

Sure, accidents caused by inexperience or distraction are not as deserving of condemnation as those caused by recklessness.

But inexperience or distraction are still factors very much within our control.

[MSTRS:Me]

...
Conditions are not in control of your bike, you are...

That's definitely quote material.

[Ocean1]

I'm sure everyone has a valid reason for riding dangerously. It's fun. I don't think that means we should accept it.

How dangerous? Who gets to decide? There's no arbitrary limit on what level of risk is acceptable.

Riding at 100mph on SH1 is an example. I could do this but if I kept it up then sooner or later there would be consequences that would eventually result in me going to jail. It suits some people to rape and murder.

If you ride at 100kph on SH1 you'll encounter consequences. How long depends on many things, some of them under your control, some not.

All the bleating on the topic comes from people who want OTHER PEOPLE to change. If you allow that then where does it stop? There's people who want SOMETHING done about most aspects of other peoples' behaviour. Follow that to it's logical conclusion. There's already laws restricting a wider range of bejaviour than at any time in history.

The rape and murder thing isn't worthy of a reply.

[MSTRS:Me]

All the bleating on the topic comes from people who want OTHER PEOPLE to change.

There is much more bleating coming from those who don't like being told they should change. They may not believe that they have any need to change, and put up as many arguments against that as there are stars in the sky.
While KM (and others, myself included) keep putting forward just the one argument for change..."The rider is responsible for all that happens to them. Usually."

[oneofsix]

There is much more bleating coming from those who don't like being told they should change. They may not believe that they have any need to change, and put up as many arguments against that as there are stars in the sky.
While KM (and others, myself included) keep putting forward just the one argument for change..."The rider is responsible for all that happens to them. Usually."

such a simplistic argument you could be forgiven for thinking it came from morons. No other factor but the rider, no weather, no road conditions, no other road users, no bike, nothing but rider.

[MSTRS:Me]

such a simplistic argument you could be forgiven for thinking it came from morons. No other factor but the rider, no weather, no road conditions, no other road users, no bike, nothing but rider.

Strange how it sometimes seems that morons can actually see the simple truth of something.
The statement "The rider is responsible for all that happens to them. Usually" is simplistic in the extreme. It doesn't have to be complicated by a load of "but what ifs".

Would you hit the picks hard, in the wet, on a painted roadmarking?
No, I hear you say.
Well, why not, I'd ask.
Because the grip is not as good as on clear chip, or in the dry, and I'm likely to lock up the front and drop the bike.
Well, says I, isn't that you being responsible?
It is up to you, the rider, to choose what is best to suit the conditions you face. That includes what sort of bike you are on, your skill level and experience, the kind of road, other traffic, weather etc.

[oneofsix]

Strange how it sometimes seems that morons can actually see the simple truth of something.
The statement "The rider is responsible for all that happens to them. Usually" is simplistic in the extreme. It doesn't have to be complicated by a load of "but what ifs".

Would you hit the picks hard, in the wet, on a painted roadmarking?
No, I hear you say.
Well, why not, I'd ask.
Because the grip is not as good as on clear chip, or in the dry, and I'm likely to lock up the front and drop the bike.
Well, says I, isn't that you being responsible?
It is up to you, the rider, to choose what is best to suit the conditions you face. That includes what sort of bike you are on, your skill level and experience, the kind of road, other traffic, weather etc.

Why am is the rider tempted to hit the picks hard on wet paint and is there stopped traffic just around the bend? Is it because they have just had to accelerate to clear the drongo coming out of the entrance way without giving way that the paint was there to delineate? In that case wouldn't it be better to fix the drongo and the paint? fixing the paint will also fix all those minor nose to tails the cages have been having. Fix the right slice of cheese and you fix more than one issue for multiple road users.

[Katman]

Fix the right slice of cheese and you fix more than one issue for multiple road users.

Sounds like you're just looking for an excuse to remain mediocre.

[oneofsix]

Sounds to me like you're just looking for an excuse to remain mediocre.

Oooh you presumptuous little tart. I is awesome and cause I is so awesome the only things that now need fixing are the other factors.

[MSTRS:Me]

Why am is the rider tempted to hit the picks hard on wet paint and is there stopped traffic just around the bend? Is it because they have just had to accelerate to clear the drongo coming out of the entrance way without giving way that the paint was there to delineate? In that case wouldn't it be better to fix the drongo and the paint? fixing the paint will also fix all those minor nose to tails the cages have been having. Fix the right slice of cheese and you fix more than one issue for multiple road users.

The reason you might have a need to hit the picks doesn't matter. It was just to illustrate a point. I could have picked ... assuming you'd seen it, you are approaching loose chip on a corner - do you continue to ride at warp factor 9, getting your knee down?

[oneofsix]

The reason you might have a need to hit the picks doesn't matter. It was just to illustrate a point. I could have picked ... assuming you'd seen it, you are approaching loose chip on a corner - do you continue to ride at warp factor 9, getting your knee down?

yes it does matter to my point and it is often the bit that blame the rider tries to ignore. Just like your 'assume you'd seen it', why wouldn't I have? because they forgot to mark it? If I had seen it I would be doing my best to be under control before I hit it but if I hadn't seen it the why not becomes important.

[MSTRS:Me]

yes it does matter to my point and it is often the bit that blame the rider tries to ignore. Just like your 'assume you'd seen it', why wouldn't I have? because they forgot to mark it? If I had seen it I would be doing my best to be under control before I hit it but if I hadn't seen it the why not becomes important.

You did see the "usually", didn't you? I am well aware that sometimes shit happens - stuff that is beyond any rider's control.
There are a myriad of reasons why a rider might not see loose gravel, but most of them are within their control.
Again, not the point. Stop making excuses. The exercise is simple.