General bitch (oops, I mean discussion) about bikers thread

[Katman]

Putting this into your doctors analogy you'd rather doctors declined doing operations that have a chance of going wrong. And all operations can go wrong and kill you.

If you want to play analogies, a motorcyclist treating the Coro Loop as a racetrack is like a doctor performing heart surgery while he's pissed.

[Ocean1]

Why have you got it in your head that there is "dictation" involved?

That's what I'm acustomed to call it when one group of people compel another to behave the way they want them to. I' pretty sure you'll find the dictionary does also.

this enture thread is about changing "culture" from one of:
- reckless disregard for ones own safety, So who's safety is it?
- allocating blame on the powers that be and everyone else involved despite having disregarded all cues and signs that you could have used to avoid your misfirtune again, They shouldn't be held accountable for the use of my money?
- general laziness and disregard for upskilling yourself to be able to recognise said cues and signs, and react appropriately Again, why is that anyone else's business?

TO:
- recognition of the VERY real dangers involved in riding recklessly I don't know anyone who would describe their riding as reckless. Just other people who have different ideas about what that means.
- taking responsibility for your own safety while riding, and I keep hearing that. Quite frankly I don't give a rats arse if other people feel responsible for any particular incident. The incident doesn't much care either.
- taking responsibility for your own training, and not waiting for others to do it for you

Explain why that's any of your business.

[avgas]

If you want to play analogies, a motorcyclist treating the Coro Loop as a racetrack is like a doctor performing heart surgery while he's pissed.

Not really.
I don't get paid to treat coro loop like a race track. Its not even my chosen profession.

Now if I got paid to not treat the coro loop like a race track I would probably slow down. Just like I get paid right now to go to work.
I don't want to go to work - I just do.

[Katman]

He's a particularly benevolent doctor - he works for free.

He likes to drink though. He says it steadies his hand.

[ynot slow]

Can't be stuffed reading the whole thread,but my thoughts re bikers are own worst enemy,whose fault was/is the crash etc.IF you crash and don't learn from said crash,YOU are a bloody idiot.
And yep the road conditions might be dodgy,i.e oil and rain,but unless the riding is at night you surely can see the slick to avoid,hence maybe rider error,no way getting at anyone who has crashed.
I came through Manawatu Gorge tonight in dark,the road was wet,heaps of traffic making it difficult to see,but my intuition was to slow down,sure enough a few pieces of rock had fallen,managed to dodge and stay in my lane,but if I'd crashed was it my fault?For sure-as I wasn't able to avoid,maybe due to speed(nope,had slown down due to night etc),visibility(maybe,was showery,visor and oncoming lights),or inattention-bingo,not paying due dilligence to the road,was it an accident if I had crashed,not really,accidents are unavoidable,this scenario and many others are avoidable.

[IdunBrokdItAgin]

That's what I'm acustomed to call it when one group of people compel another to behave the way they want them to. I' pretty sure you'll find the dictionary does also.


Originally Posted by R-Soul
this enture thread is about changing "culture" from one of:
- reckless disregard for ones own safety, So who's safety is it?
- allocating blame on the powers that be and everyone else involved despite having disregarded all cues and signs that you could have used to avoid your misfirtune again, They shouldn't be held accountable for the use of my money?
- general laziness and disregard for upskilling yourself to be able to recognise said cues and signs, and react appropriately Again, why is that anyone else's business?

TO:
- recognition of the VERY real dangers involved in riding recklessly I don't know anyone who would describe their riding as reckless. Just other people who have different ideas about what that means.
- taking responsibility for your own safety while riding, and I keep hearing that. Quite frankly I don't give a rats arse if other people feel responsible for any particular incident. The incident doesn't much care either.

Explain why that's any of your business.

This post sums it up for me - especially the last sentence - why do some feel the need to comment on other members' riding - especially when not asked?

I believe that the amount of extreme cases, where people do not wish to learn from their OWN mistakes, are very rare.

Everyone who is rational acknowledges that they could do "anything" better, but to have that point rammed down your throat by a bunch of keyboard warriors will just get anyones back up.

The sanctimonious (key word here) members who argue that they should be freely allowed to criticise other riders are the ones who need to look at themselves.

My point is not to refute that people do make mistakes when riding (and rightly so should attempt to learn from experience).
My point is that the sanctimonious twats on this site will "assume" and "presume" to their hearts content, based upon bugger all "facts".
Their approach means that they have the moral low ground, but they never seem to fully appreciate this (kicking while someone is down would be abhorrent to most normal people).

They (the sanctimonious ones) will undoubtedly go off at a tangent or pick fault with a segment of this post rather than understanding the point though.

[flyingcrocodile46]

This post sums it up for me - especially the last sentence - why do some feel the need to comment on other members' riding - especially when not asked?

I believe that the amount of extreme cases, where people do not wish to learn from their OWN mistakes, are very rare.

Everyone who is rational acknowledges that they could do "anything" better, but to have that point rammed down your throat by a bunch of keyboard warriors will just get anyones back up.

The sanctimonious (key word here) members who argue that they should be freely allowed to criticise other riders are the ones who need to look at themselves.

My point is not to refute that people do make mistakes when riding (and rightly so should attempt to learn from experience).
My point is that the sanctimonious twats on this site will "assume" and "presume" to their hearts content, based upon bugger all "facts".
Their approach means that they have the moral low ground, but they never seem to fully appreciate this (kicking while someone is down would be abhorrent to most normal people).

They (the sanctimonious ones) will undoubtedly go off at a tangent or pick fault with a segment of this post rather than understanding the point though.

[terbang]

I believe that the amount of extreme cases, where people do not wish to learn from their OWN mistakes, are very rare.

Everyone who is rational acknowledges that they could do "anything" better, but to have that point rammed down your throat by a bunch of keyboard warriors will just get anyones back up.

The sanctimonious (key word here) members who argue that they should be freely allowed to criticise other riders are the ones who need to look at themselves.

My point is not to refute that people do make mistakes when riding (and rightly so should attempt to learn from experience).
My point is that the sanctimonious twats on this site will "assume" and "presume" to their hearts content, based upon bugger all "facts".
Their approach means that they have the moral low ground, but they never seem to fully appreciate this (kicking while someone is down would be abhorrent to most normal people).

They (the sanctimonious ones) will undoubtedly go off at a tangent or pick fault with a segment of this post rather than understanding the point though.

Perfect, in 1980 Ron Chipppendale came up with the crude conclusion of "pilot error" when investigating the Mt Erebus accident. Even in the light of more evidence using systemic analysis including findings of criminal behavior ("Orchestrated litany of lies"), he maintained his sanctimonious stance and heaped all the blame on the Captain (Jim Collins). The past thirty odd years has proven that whilst the captain did play a part and made some mistakes through his own lack of care, the accident still could have been averted if some of the latent failures had been fixed.
In those days pilots were not so schooled in the matters of CRM and human factors, so Collins would not have recognized a lot of the latent failures that were lurking.
Chippendale obnoxiously maintained his sanctimonious stance right on up to his retirement into obscurity. He made no real contribution to preventing such an accident from happening again, other than to show the world how not to investigate an accident. Thus provoking change.

Often the sanctimonious amongst us have good intentions, and in person they may be good blokes, but their "writers voice" may be letting them down. As often when writing people don't realize how they sound when they write.

Its not all about touchey feely, but rather doing it right with an open mind. When we ride, there is the physical act of controlling the motorcycle and there is also the management of the ride and both of these skills need to be taught, encouraged and kept current. When managing our ride we need to manage the environment we are in and also the other road users and know when to say when. But it should go further than just that.

In an earlier post yungatart recounted an off she had, she looked at all facets and it resulted in her complaining about the road surface. It was fixed and so therefore a latent failure was eliminated.
Think about how many other accidents that didn't occur as a result of her actions.

[Katman]

This post sums it up for me - especially the last sentence - why do some feel the need to comment on other members' riding - especially when not asked?

When your accident goes towards strengthening the government's resolve to make life more difficult for the rest of us then it certainly does become our business.

[Maha]

Perfect, in 1980 Ron Chipppendale came up with the crude conclusion of "pilot error" when investigating the Mt Erebus accident.

...and went on to create and produce an all male dance troupe..

[Ocean1]

When your accident goes towards strengthening the government's resolve to make life more difficult for the rest of us then it certainly does become our business.

Yes, you've already explained that self interest is the reason behind your obnoxious behaviour. You've got a problem with the government, not those who have accidents.

In fact I wonder how many people you're effectively blaming for your problem. Hands up all yous bikers who've had an accident...

Not you, junior, you've only been around the block twice.

Of the rest? Maybe 80%


Oh you dirty 1%ers you. Shame.

[Ocean1]

Hmm, a loud and very clear point there. The kiwibikers you know...

I would have thought, for a pilot, your comprehension would be better than that.

Indeed. The word was "kiwibiker", (the site). Not "kiwibikers", (it's inhabitants).

Katman doesn't know the site as anything other than a place to vent his spleen at everyone else.

[Ocean1]

I believe that the amount of extreme cases, where people do not wish to learn from their OWN mistakes, are very rare.

Non-existant, in fact. No living thing fails to learn from their every action, every day. There might be some few who seek to over-emphisize environmental issues, perhaps in an attempt to minimise damage to their "image". But pointing out to them, (often with zero facts) that they're wrong adds not a jot to the sum of inteligence potentially useful in preventing further simmilar accidents.

[Katman]

But pointing out to them, (often with zero facts) that they're wrong adds not a jot to the sum of inteligence potentially useful in preventing further simmilar accidents.

It does if enough people say it.

[Usarka]

We should all just stop arguing and pat him on the head for we will never win. For a) i'm sure most of it is just argument for arguments sake, and b) he's right in his own mind and will not accept anything except 100% his view of the world, ie. we're all wrong.

Save the breath and just butt in once in a while.