General bitch (oops, I mean discussion) about bikers thread

[Katman]

Wankers who wave their finger at others will be what ends up costing us in the long run, not those who simply have a different idea of what risk is acceptable and what isn't.

No, wankers who believe they have the right to ride in whatever manner they like, regardless of the impact their actions have on others, will be what ends up costing us in the long run.

[terbang]

Doesn't sound like the Kiwibiker I know.

Hmm, a loud and very clear point there. The kiwibikers you know...

[Katman]

Hmm, a loud and very clear point there. The kiwibikers you know...

I would have thought, for a pilot, your comprehension would be better than that.

[avgas]

I have found that in a proper training environment people welcome their fallibilities being pointed out to them by their mentors. Its part of the way we learn.

Yes for some. No for me.

I treat riding like wanking. Last think I want is a professional wanker telling me I am doing it wrong. I much prefer learning new things on my own, in my own terms.

As abhorred as that sounds, it works. And not only can I get myself off in no time flat - my motorbike skills are what I would consider sufficient for my needs.

But feel free to attend motorcycle soggy biscuit days, doesn't bother me in the slightest. I understand that is how you prefer to learn. Just don't assume "we" is both you and I.

[avgas]

Bullshit Bruce. If people post about their accident and genuinely sound like they want to know what they did wrong I don't see anyone ridiculing them.

Except me, I will mock the crap out of them.

If you haven't learn't what you did did wrong in a crash and have to have others tell you.........chances are you will do it again.

Even a monkey knows that touching the electric fence is a bad idea after the first time.

[Edbear]

So the message is it's ok to speed where one believes that it's safe to speed.

Isn't that what people do now? I mean, who really speeds if they think it's unsafe to speed or if they are sure they will get caught (another form of unsafe)?

Not quite. Many speed even knowing the risk in risky situations because they think they can get away with it by their own skill or that they reckon the risk is worth the thrill.

In my case, I pointed out this was a long time ago in the main and apart from the max speed run, where I actually backed off before maxing out, I haven't sped for a long time now due to the higher risk these days and the fact that I am older and wiser than I was.

I'm encouraging people to stop and think more about where and when they are. My high speed action was in deserted or near-deserted traffic conditions well away from main centers and traffic. Usually I was the only one around and even as I pointed out with the highest speed I'd ever recorded, it was done with only the other three bikes I was with anywhere to be seen. No other traffic and on a clear relatively straight stretch of road in ideal weather conditions with my bike well up to scratch. How many restrict their speeding to those coditions?

[R-Soul]

The road makers, planners, law enforcers and anyone who has anything to do with riding a motorcycle on a road would also be able to recognize an error chain and act accordingly.....

Yeah right... Tui anyone?

Katman....you are only touching on one aspect of managing rider safety.

We all know this - but its the only one that we can control for ourselves. And if we delay what we can do, while waiting for the government to start start looking at the big picture, or even start caring, we could be waiting a while!

[R-Soul]

I did. I suggested that professionals in industries that use advanced analisys as a safety tool are trained to a far higher level than your average driver or rider. Clear?

And I am saying that we as indivduals should take responsibiliy for ourselves to use the same tools to save our own skin. Not wait for an appointed bike safety minister.

You're on a side? I shouldn't expect objectivity in your comments, then?

Getting defensive? I was referring to my side of the computer screen. But you could also look at it from the side of logic, rationality and objectivity itself....

[R-Soul]

Lets see, an example might be in order... If you watch closely you'll notice people want to travel faster than they're currently allowed to. What makes you think making the speed limits more restrictive would change that behaviour?

There is no ethical reason for anyone to attempt to dictate how anyone else should behave if they're not hurting anyone else. And no, minimising ACC's costs doesn't count as hurting someone else..

Why have you got it in your head that there is "dictation" involved? this enture thread is about changing "culture" from one of:
- reckless disregard for ones own safety,
- allocating blame on the powers that be and everyone else involved despite having disregarded all cues and signs that you could have used to avoid your misfirtune
- general laziness and disregard for upskilling yourself to be able to recognise said cues and signs, and react appropriately

TO:
- recognition of the VERY real dangers involved in riding recklessly
- taking responsibility for your own safety while riding, and
- taking responsibility for your own training, and not waiting for others to do it for you

Here is an example for you: NZ has a great culture around drinking and driving. I was amazed when I arrived here.

Compare it to SA, where its a "nudge, nudge, wink, wink, I wont say anything f you don't" culture, and if you manage to get home in one piece then all is well. but if you dont then its all the governments fault for not having late night busses or more breathlyser road blocks set up.

I thought it was damn cool to see friends here not letting their friends drive, and taking the time and making the effiort to allocate designated drivers. As opposed to the SA culture of "full speed ahead and fuck the icebergs", and "we'll cross that bridge when we come to it (or when we go flying through it blind drunk)".

That is the culture change that is needed in NZ biking (and frankly SA biking too). No dictation required.

[Usarka]

One of the American presenters put up stats showing that the 7th leading cause of death in the states was medical related fuck ups (well he didn't use that term exactly). He suggested NZ would be similar and asked the audience if any would disagree.

I'd be surprised if it isn't much higher.

New Zealand data indicate 13 percent of hospital admissions are associated with an adverse event and 15 percent of these adverse events are associated with permanent disability or death.

All practicing doctors are aware of error in their day to day work.

http://www.mcnz.org.nz/portals/0/pub...apter%2022.pdf

[Katman]

I'd be surprised if it isn't much higher.

And do you see the medical profession sitting back and saying "People die - get over it"?

[Usarka]

And do you see the medical profession sitting back and saying "People die - get over it".

Yes.

But they put measures in place to minimise undue risk, review when things go seriously wrong and punish when people are negligent.

The medical profession is full of risks and decisions that can kill. They realise that the people making these decisions are human. Some more than others.

And yes, I've worked in public health so I have a fair idea of what the attitude is behing closed doors.

[Katman]

But they put measures in place to minimise undue risk, review when things go seriously wrong and punish when people are negligent.

Hey, there's a good idea.

[Usarka]

Hey, there's a good idea.

Yep that's why I wear good gear, pick my spots and generally ride sensibly. When I make a decision and if I want to take a risk I weigh up the cost/benefit just like doctors. If I'm negligent I get busted by the cops. I'd suggest the majority of us normally operate like this anyway.

Putting this into your doctors analogy you'd rather doctors declined doing operations that have a chance of going wrong. And all operations can go wrong and kill you.

[Ocean1]

And I am saying that we as indivduals should take responsibiliy for ourselves to use the same tools to save our own skin. Not wait for an appointed bike safety minister.

Fair enough too, you're individually absolutely free to do whatever you think works. For you. As do the rest of us.

Getting defensive? I was referring to my side of the computer screen. But you could also look at it from the side of logic, rationality and objectivity itself....

Not at all. And for the record logic, rationality and objectivity don't have a side.