General bitch (oops, I mean discussion) about bikers thread

[R-Soul]

I hazard a guess that if there were a motorcycle school that had to put every person that wanted to ride a bike through a 6 year training program and a multitude of tests or exams, then they practiced 8-10 hours a day 5 days a week, and had to do regular updates and exams, then there would be a significant reduction in crashes.
For most of us, riding a bike isnt a profession.

And therein lies the problem. While it is not a profession, and we are not required by law (at least not yet) to have huge amounts of training, the results of us making an even moderate fuck up, can be very similar.

Too many of us do not recognise that we actually DO NEED that training, despite the lack of legislation making it mandatory, and that we DO need to provide the same amount of care and frankly common sense that we expect of people flying planes and performing operations.

Instead, we regard it like driving a car, with a "take it or leave it" approach to safety, gear, and even common sense. Playing Russian Roulette on the next corner. Plain FUCKING STUPID.

And we attack others pointing out this fact...

[R-Soul]

When I see a biker down thread, I believe that those who are lending a sympathetic ear (often vocal about cars, roads, police etc) are not mitigating the likely errors of the rider, but rather are in their own way recognizing that the rider was a victim of a systemic or chain of events that led to the accident.

And Katman is saying that playing the 'victim' is a cop out - so what if 6 years of training was not legislated for bikers? Does that stop them from training themselves for 6 years? So what if the road spee dlimit says 100km/hr - does that mean that you should still take a muddy corner in the wet at that speed?

If bikers recognise faults in the system, but dont do more than they absolutely have to to train themselves, or be more careful than the rule book says, despite overwhelming evidence that they should, and against all common sense, are they really victims?

[R-Soul]

It's a good tool eh? Useful in helping describes the real world factors contributing to any event.

Thing is, it takes a cultural shift by everyone to make that tool work...


...That’s not going to ever happen WRT general transport drivers riders....

What to do?

Who said anything about general transport riders? Casual riders are subject to the same risks everytime they go riding, for the time they go riding. They just dont do as much time.

It seems pretty obvious what to do from this side. Get everyone to make a cultural shift. How - by discussing accidents online and getting them to stop relying on the legislators to provide their common sense for them (fuck - thinking about it like that, no wonder we are having so many accidents, relying on legistlators for anything at all...especially common sense!).

This is exactly what Katman is getting at.

[terbang]

Would you hit the picks hard, in the wet, on a painted roadmarking?
No, I hear you say.
Well, why not, I'd ask.
Because the grip is not as good as on clear chip, or in the dry, and I'm likely to lock up the front and drop the bike.
Well, says I, isn't that you being responsible?
It is up to you, the rider, to choose what is best to suit the conditions you face. That includes what sort of bike you are on, your skill level and experience, the kind of road, other traffic, weather etc.

Interesting point, so if in this case the rider fell off. Was it because he hit the picks, the paint was of a cheap and slippery variety, the rider wasn't educated on such a hazard (very soon will be), he was riding on bald tyres, the planners and makers of the road screwed up or the old adage, he was speeding. I'd hazard a guess that it would be a combination of some of these factors plus more that would result in this hypothetical accident.

Remember the rider is human, he is limited by many human factors and really isn't designed to be in this man-made environment. He is certainly (by design) fallible with his skill and decision making process. In other words he needs to be educated by those who are also trained to educate (yeah chicken and egg stuff I know). And yet the rider is the last window (or slice of cheese) to avert an accident, often bearing the consequence and scorn of such an accident. Remember, misalign any of the slices of cheese and the accident will be averted.

In an ideal Safety Management System, the rider would also be trained to identify all the latent failures, or recognise that all the other holes in the cheese were becoming aligned. And have a reporting system (BRONZ or similar or even the cops) that will allow such feedback to occur.

The road makers, planners, law enforcers and anyone who has anything to do with riding a motorcycle on a road would also be able to recognize an error chain and act accordingly. In other words a total approach to improving rider safety, heavily weighted toward education, rather than just beating up the riders post an accident (not how a good educator behaves too) for their slip ups.

Katman and Mstrs, we all know what you are trying to achieve and I'm sure that everyone here applauds your good intentions, but you are only touching on one aspect of managing rider safety. However if that is your intention and only want to focus on changing rider attitudes, then you need to change the type of person who is on the road by educating them using sound instructional technique. And beating people up about their mistakes really isn't a sound education practise and teaches us all nothing. Being a good teacher is not an inherent skill, it is learnt.

[R-Soul]

Don't we all strive to be better at what we do?
Are you satisfied with mediocrity in your work, or as a parent, lover etc?
If I'm going to be bothered doing something, I'm going to give it my best - try and improve, lern and better myself (as per previous post) that's just human nature isn't it? Would you rather remove that attitude from human nature?

I think its quite the contrary - the best rider is the one that doesn't crash. And if they do, they ensure that they crash in a controlled environment.

Well awesomeness very often outlast death Katman and the good thing about death in such circumstances is that you rarely fall from grace thereafter so the legend lives on.

Yeah - I'd rather be alive and riding responsibly, aware of all my responsibilties as a rider, than an awesome tear in my kids eyes.

My main responsibility is to think for myself- realistically and responsibly, recognising the shortfalls in the legislation, the consequences of my actions, and the fact that even by following the rules, it may not be enough.

[yungatart]

Oooh you presumptuous little tart...

Please don't confuse me with Katman...I am better looking for a start...

A few years ago I had an accident.
I was not very experienced, and that certainly contributed.
The corner didn't have a speed advisory sign on it...that was a factor too.
My tyres weren't the best, warrantable, but not great...
The chip had worn off the road, leaving great shiny patches, that didn't help either.

When analysing what I did wrong, I was told (by many)...don't worry about...just a newbie mistake...you didn't read the road right....blah blah blah.

Nobody could tell me how to read the road right, apparently it is just something you 'do'!!

I could have just accepted the words of those far more experienced than I and carried on blissfully ignorant.

The point is though, that I took responsiblity for my accident, we reported the road to the relevant council and they installed signage, I changed the tyres on my bike and I searched out someone who could teach me how to "read the road right".

Lesson learned...but only because I took responsibility.
I could have blamed any or all of those things because they were all factors in my accident. I chose to change what I could, the most important being me, my knowledge and skill base...and that is all Katman (and others) is saying.

[Edbear]

Please don't confuse me with Katman...I am better looking for a start...

A few years ago I had an accident.
I was not very experienced, and that certainly contributed.
The corner didn't have a speed advisory sign on it...that was a factor too.
My tyres weren't the best, warrantable, but not great...
The chip had worn off the road, leaving great shiny patches, that didn't help either.

When analysing what I did wrong, I was told (by many)...don't worry about...just a newbie mistake...you didn't read the road right....blah blah blah.

Nobody could tell me how to read the road right, apparently it is just something you 'do'!!

I could have just accepted the words of those far more experienced than I and carried on blissfully ignorant.

The point is though, that I took responsiblity for my accident, we reported the road to the relevant council and they installed signage, I changed the tyres on my bike and I searched out someone who could teach me how to "read the road right".

Lesson learned...but only because I took responsibility.
I could have blamed any or all of those things because they were all factors in my accident. I chose to change what I could, the most important being me, my knowledge and skill base...and that is all Katman (and others) is saying.

I think the fact that you're a woman would also be a factor in that... Of course I haven't seen either of you in person or in picture so can't judge, but if your anything like your sense of humour you must be beautiful, for sure... Katman doesn't seem to have a sense of humour, at least that he's shown yet...

[Katman]

Katman and Mstrs, we all know what you are trying to achieve and I'm sure that everyone here applauds your good intentions, but you are only touching on one aspect of managing rider safety.

I don't know how to put this any clearer....

We are touching on the aspect that we have most control over.

[Usarka]

Interesting point, so if in this case the rider fell off. Was it because he hit the picks, the paint was of a cheap and slippery variety, the rider wasn't educated on such a hazard (very soon will be), he was riding on bald tyres, the planners and makers of the road screwed up or the old adage, he was speeding. I'd hazard a guess that it would be a combination of some of these factors plus more that would result in this hypothetical accident.

Remember the rider is human, he is limited by many human factors and really isn't designed to be in this man-made environment. He is certainly (by design) fallible with his skill and decision making process. In other words he needs to be educated by those who are also trained to educate (yeah chicken and egg stuff I know). And yet the rider is the last window (or slice of cheese) to avert an accident, often bearing the consequence and scorn of such an accident. Remember, misalign any of the slices of cheese and the accident will be averted.

In an ideal Safety Management System, the rider would also be trained to identify all the latent failures, or recognise that all the other holes in the cheese were becoming aligned. And have a reporting system (BRONZ or similar or even the cops) that will allow such feedback to occur.

The road makers, planners, law enforcers and anyone who has anything to do with riding a motorcycle on a road would also be able to recognize an error chain and act accordingly. In other words a total approach to improving rider safety, heavily weighted toward education, rather than just beating up the riders post an accident (not how a good educator behaves too) for their slip ups.

Katman and Mstrs, we all know what you are trying to achieve and I'm sure that everyone here applauds your good intentions, but you are only touching on one aspect of managing rider safety. However if that is your intention and only want to focus on changing rider attitudes, then you need to change the type of person who is on the road by educating them using sound instructional technique. And beating people up about their mistakes really isn't a sound education practise and teaches us all nothing. Being a good teacher is not an inherent skill, it is learnt.

Listen to this man, he knows what he's talking about. Aviation philosophy, well articulated.

[MSTRS:Me]

I don't know how to put this any clearer....

We are touching on the aspect that we have most control over.

Fuck off!! It is the ONLY thing we have control over...

[Katman]

Fuck off!! It is the ONLY thing we have control over...

Good point.





I'll call it a deliberate mistake.

[Oblivion]

I'll call it a deliberate mistake.

Completely unintentional right?

[Katman]

Completely unintentional right?

I was distracted so it wasn't my fault.

[Edbear]

Good point.

I'll call it a deliberate mistake.

I was distracted so it wasn't my fault.

So what have you learned from it...?

[Oblivion]

So what have you learned from it...?

Pffffft...... Learning is so overated.