General bitch (oops, I mean discussion) about bikers thread

[terbang]

Much of this is never going to happen. There is simply not the same economic and societal benefit to be gained from reducing motorcycle crashes that there is/was with regard to aviation. It would be far easier to just ban them.

To that I agree and as I said, if only we could have a 500 seat motorcycle to generate the revenue to fund a decent motorcycle SMS.

However we don't have, so training the riders is about all we can do right now. However what I see here is a couple of blokes, hiding behind their ME status standing on soap boxes, criticizing without basis and using some of the most appalling instructional technique I've seen. It seems to be achieving very little for the amount of energy (and good intention) being expelled. We could educate people in a better way.

In a previous post I stated that the skill of teaching isn't inherent and also needs to be trained as well. Some adapt to it better than others and should be selected accordingly, but they need to be trained.

In the past, airlines had problems in this area, for years guys were often promoted to trainers and examiners based on their seniority or their experience or "good blokedness" and often struggled in the role of instructor often doing more harm than good. The regulators caught up with this and forced the industry to train the trainers.

One of the biggest lessons learned in Aviation is that we learned from our mistakes in a non punitive reporting system. As of today Cockpit recorders can only be used for improving flight safety and not evidence in court to prosecute. So a culture of "spill yer guts" when you fuck up allows the industry to learn from their mistakes.

Humans do make mistakes and our job is to mitigate those errors buy learning from our mistakes. Honest reporting and good training is the answer.

OK so where does that fit here? I believe that most here already understand the basic principles that I have mentioned. I see quite a few "I crashed like this" threads on this site, this tells me that some amongst us want to share their experience and though some posts may be dressed up with a bit of self protection, most stand as a stark warning and example to other motorcyclists about the dangers of our environment.
However most of those threads also degenerate into a shit fight as the zealots (some call themselves mentors) jump on board for probably the right reasons, though using the wrong method, and ridicule and chastise the poor poster for simply sharing their experience.
The impetus of the original post is lost and the rest remain silent.

Katman you really could do some good on this site and do your title some justice, if you were to behave like an educator rather than a school prefect.

We all have a voice, we have MAG, BRONZ and many other ways of getting our message across. I personally would be happy to pay a greater levy to put my bikes on the road if I thought that it was going towards improving education throughout motorcycling. And that may also include educating a few of those outside the motorcycle community who can also contribute to our accident rate.

[Katman]

Bullshit Bruce. If people post about their accident and genuinely sound like they want to know what they did wrong I don't see anyone ridiculing them.

All too often though, they post about their accident in a manner that tries to blame everything other than themselves. Then when someone suggests that they should look at themselves rather than blaming everything else, that's when the shit fight starts.

People just don't like their own fallibilities being pointed out to them.

[oneofsix]

Bullshit Bruce. If people post about their accident and genuinely sound like they want to know what they did wrong I don't see anyone ridiculing them.

All too often though, they post about their accident in a manner that tries to blame everything other than themselves, then when someone suggests that they should look at themselves rather than blaming everything else, that's when the shit fight starts.

People just don't like their own fallibilities pointed out to them.

All this according to Katmans criteria as Judge, Jury and primarily executioner.

[The Stranger:Me]

Does the medical profession tolerate honest mistakes? Once again - not lightly. Do they tolerate mistakes through stupidity? Most definitely not.

So why should motorcyclists get away with the attitude of "Meh, people die - get over it"?

Interesting you should mention that. Even with all of their training and expertise they still make fuckups.

We did AV and IT support for an international medical conference at the Aotea Centre several years ago. One of the American presenters put up stats showing that the 7th leading cause of death in the states was medical related fuck ups (well he didn't use that term exactly). He suggested NZ would be similar and asked the audience if any would disagree. None did (they were all doctors).

A quick google search of death due to medical error supports this position.

In the actual words of a doctor I visited "We can always bury our mistakes"

I thank you for your support of my argument.

[Spearfish]

Unfortunately those that buy a bike to "chase the dragon" will always be there doing just that, bikers were/are(?) traditionally the daredevil pilots of yesteryear.
Probably a strong attraction for some people.


If you want to understand where biking is in NZ then go back to the TV One close up program. {cringe} There were many facets to that segment.....

[Katman]

In the actual words of a doctor I visited "We can always bury our mistakes"

I thank you for your support of my argument.

Actually Noel, the current example of the woman who died after being given 10 times the normal dose of beta blockers would suggest that medical misadventure is not treated lightly.

Surely you're not suggesting that a culture of covering up mistakes within the medical profession should be acceptable.

[terbang]

People just don't like their own fallibilities being pointed out to them.

I have found that in a proper training environment people welcome their fallibilities being pointed out to them by their mentors. Its part of the way we learn.

[Katman]

I have found that in a proper training environment people welcome their fallibilities being pointed out to them by their mentors.

Doesn't sound like the Kiwibiker I know.

[The Stranger:Me]

Of course, there are no track fees to pay on the road and we all enjoy our bikes and riding and we are sorely tempted to wick it up from time to time.

I will confess that over 40 years of biking has seen me exceeding 160km/h many times and for long distances, generally many years ago when traffic was a lot lighter and slower than today. I've had a couple of close calls, ironically never while going that fast and have managed to never crash.

Why? I chose very deliberately where and when to do these speeds and was always aware of my surroundings and exercised caution. Those were also the days when tractors could only do less than half the speeds they can today and when droving animals on the roads was a common method of getting them from one place to the other. Sheep, cattle and horses were frequently on the main and secondary roads and overtaking lanes were rare.

Recent years have seen me reach my fastest speed ever on the road and was in suitable conditions with the only traffic being the three bikes accompanying me. My bikes have always been registered and warranted and up to standard, I've always worn the right gear, and the only accident I've ever had was exactly 12 months ago today at 8:45am in a van at less than 50km/h when I slid on oil.

My point? THINK before you wind that throttle on!

So the message is it's ok to speed where one believes that it's safe to speed.

Isn't that what people do now? I mean, who really speeds if they think it's unsafe to speed or if they are sure they will get caught (another form of unsafe)?

[The Stranger:Me]

Actually Noel, the current example of the woman who died after being given 10 times the normal dose of beta blockers would suggest that medical misadventure is not treated lightly.

Surely you're not suggesting that a culture of covering up mistakes within the medical profession should be acceptable.

Oh yeah, first time that a hospital has ever killed (or mistreated) anyone right? With all due respect - fuck off, it happens a damn site more frequently than many would care to know.
I must admit I was very surprised at seeing that one even make the papers, must have been a slow news day.

I'm not suggesting that it is acceptable at all.
I do understand the reasons why they happen (human error chief among them) and why it is somewhat necessary to play down - though it's not really covered up as a cursory search will show.

[Katman]

and why it is somewhat necessary to play down

'Play down' - is that the PC version of 'Cover up'?

[The Stranger:Me]

'Play down' - is that the PC version of 'Cover up'?

It can be spun many ways, the result is the same.
Try suing a doctor and it will become clear. You will need expert witness. Where will you get expert witness?
It's not fooken easy, they all close ranks. Why?

The reason given was "let he who is without sin cast the first stone".

That is, they pretty much all accept that they are all human and all make mistakes.
But then, there's no katman in the medical profession is there?

[The Stranger:Me]

Doesn't sound like the Kiwibiker I know.

Doesn't sound like katman either does it.

[Ocean1]

One of the American presenters put up stats showing that the 7th leading cause of death in the states was medical related fuck ups (well he didn't use that term exactly). He suggested NZ would be similar and asked the audience if any would disagree. None did (they were all doctors).

A child is taken to a NZ ED with minor head injuries.

The child's mother wants to know why an MRI isn't being considered.

The American ED specialist tells her that in an American ED it would be automatic.

Why not here? demands the mother.

Because the risk of cancer later in life is a higher risk than not having an MRI, they do it to protect the hospital against any subsequent law suite.

An MRI costs about $800. That, and the higher cancer rate are the direct costs associated with a culture of blame.

Wankers who wave their finger at others will be what ends up costing us in the long run, not those who simply have a different idea of what risk is acceptable and what isn't.

[Ocean1]

I'm not suggesting that it is acceptable at all.

Allow me.

If you don't want to expose yourself to the possibility of being treated in a less than ideal way by the medical profession then feel free to avoid using their services.