The Obama deception, HQ full length version! Fact or fiction?

[short-circuit]

Heads up chaps- Anthony Hubbard reports in Sunday Star Times "A group of activists with links to Act and National" are preparing a campaign against the electoral system, the details of which are becoming known. Those who don't want a return to FFP will need to make their voice heard.

We should have gone with STV (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single_transferable_vote) when we rejected the abortion that was FFP...that's not what these bastards are are trying to tee up however

[oldrider]

We should have gone with STV (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single_transferable_vote) when we rejected the abortion that was FFP...that's not what these bastards are are trying to tee up however

I saw on TV the other night, a comment about what choices we will be given and I did not hear STV even mentioned!

I don't think it will be even offered this time ..... the bastards!

[imdying]

Those who don't want a return to FFP will need to make their voice heard.

we rejected the abortion that was FFP

What's FFP?

[Oscar]

Exactly what the New Zealand "Social Credit party" was saying and gaining >21% of the vote but only one or two seats in the house due to the inequality of the "first past the post" voting system!

Imagine what 21% of the vote would have meant under proportional representation, even MMP!

(who then was the real threat to the comfortable status quo?)

On the pretence of combating and competing with "Robert Mulldoon" and his failing National party, Robert Jones formed the "New Zealand Party" to offer a more acceptable (to the shadowy status quo) alternative for dissatisfied swinging National and Labour voters!

He disbanded the party following the 1984 election, mission accomplished and was "Knighted" for his effort!

Why was he knighted? Why was Robert Mulldoon knighted?

Who benefited most from the destruction of the Social Credit threat?

(IMO)The only real casualty "was" the "Social Credit party", the old Labour/National coalition club carried on unchallenged until under immense pressure by the electorate at large for "proportional representation", a series of "referendum" were offered!

In 1984 Social Credit won two seats with 7.6% of the vote, whereas the New Zealand Party won no seats with 12.2% of the vote.
Misson accomplished???

I have no idea why Bob Jones got a gong, but it was pretty standard for PM's to be knighted.

[Oscar]

In the end MMP was the only offer on the table, take it or leave it, even I voted MMP rather than retain FPP!

STV was always my personal preference of those on offer in the first referendum!

MMP has proved to have disenfranchised the voters further from the decision making process than did FPP and clearly allows the politicians to choose a government among themselves and only accountable to their coalition members irrespective of the wishes of the bewildered and powerless electorate!

Next years election will give us another chance to get a proportional system that holds the politicians responsible to the "electorate", rather than to each other at the expense of the electorate, as they do under MMP!

I recommend STV (single transferable vote) as a more suitable system to make the politicians responsible to the electorate (the voters) once again!

All I ask is that you all think about it before the referendum rather than repent in sorrow after the event!

To be fair, STV was offered (and vocally backed by the likes of Marilyn Warin) in the first referundum (I voted for it), so your comments have a whiff of the bad loser about them...

Would you care to explain how "...MMP has proved to have disenfranchised the voters further from the decision making process than did FPP..? In my opinion MMP brings the opposite problem - too many vocal minorities are holding success Govts to ransom. NZ First, Act, the Maori Party and the Greens all managed to advance their agendas to the cabinet table with no real justification based on voter numbers.

And just for you guys how are saying that it's ACT and the Nats who favour FPP - who formed an association to back FPP against MMP in 1992?

Simon Upton and Helen Clarke.

[oneofsix]

In 1984 Social Credit won two seats with 7.6% of the vote, whereas the New Zealand Party won no seats with 12.2% of the vote.
Misson accomplished???

I have no idea why Bob Jones got a gong, but it was pretty standard for PM's to be knighted.

Mission accomplished in that NZ party took enough of the votes away from National in key seats to cost them the seats and therefore the election. Rob Muldoon removed as PM and retired from National party.
Funnily enough Rob Jone's actions again highlighted the problem with FPP in that it was based on winning seats, not votes.

[Oscar]

Mission accomplished in that NZ party took enough of the votes away from National in key seats to cost them the seats and therefore the election. Rob Muldoon removed as PM and retired from National party.
Funnily enough Rob Jone's actions again highlighted the problem with FPP in that it was based on winning seats, not votes.

I agree. However Old Rider was inferring that the NZ Party was some way of disposing of Social Credit (at least I think that's what he said).

[cold comfort]

I saw on TV the other night, a comment about what choices we will be given and I did not hear STV even mentioned!

Just got my voting registration. STV IS included in the options for the referendum J.

To be fair, STV was offered (and vocally backed by the likes of Marilyn Warin) in the first referundum (I voted for it), so your comments have a whiff of the bad loser about them... NZ First, Act, the Maori Party and the Greens all managed to advance their agendas to the cabinet table with no real justification based on voter numbers.Quote)

And just for you guys how are saying that it's ACT and the Nats who favour FPP - who formed an association to back FPP against MMP in 1992?
Simon Upton and Helen Clarke.

If the Green agenda involves not having oil slicks in Golden Bay and polluted ground water from Chinese owned dairy farms I'm all for it. I also believe the disproportionate weighting of the Maori party is caused by the anachronistic "Maori seats" which should have "gone by lunchtime"

True,pollies hate something which may moderate their excesses however as the Times article said it appears the campaign is being mounted by Act and National this time.

[oldrider]

In 1984 Social Credit won two seats with 7.6% of the vote, whereas the New Zealand Party won no seats with 12.2% of the vote.
Misson accomplished???

I have no idea why Bob Jones got a gong, but it was pretty standard for PM's to be knighted.

Imagine what Social Credit could have achieved with the other 12.2%!

Most of the voters that supported Bob Jones party were disenchanted voters and would most probably voted Social Credit in a moment of protest against the status quo!

Such was the situation at the time!

Combine the two votes and Social Credit could have been in charge of the treasury benches!

Introduce Bob Jones and promote his party as a "popular" alternative and mission accomplished ... goodbye Social Credit .... hello "Sir" Robert Jones!

Well, that's the way it appeared to me at the time and bob Jones simply faded away from the political scene once he had done the job for his financial backers!

This of course is just my personal opinion of events around me at that time!

[oneofsix]

Imagine what Social Credit could have achieved with the other 12.2%!

Most of the voters that supported Bob Jones party were disenchanted voters and would most probably voted Social Credit in a moment of protest against the status quo!

Such was the situation at the time!

Combine the two votes and Social Credit could have been in charge of the treasury benches!

Introduce Bob Jones and promote his party as a "popular" alternative and mission accomplished ... goodbye Social Credit .... hello "Sir" Robert Jones!

Well, that's the way it appeared to me at the time and bob Jones simply faded away from the political scene once he had done the job for his financial backers!

This of course is just my personal opinion of events around me at that time!

that sounds about right because back then the one thing Labour and National could agree consistently on was being scared of Social Credit.

[Oscar]

Imagine what Social Credit could have achieved with the other 12.2%!

Most of the voters that supported Bob Jones party were disenchanted voters and would most probably voted Social Credit in a moment of protest against the status quo!

Such was the situation at the time!

Combine the two votes and Social Credit could have been in charge of the treasury benches!

Introduce Bob Jones and promote his party as a "popular" alternative and mission accomplished ... goodbye Social Credit .... hello "Sir" Robert Jones!

Well, that's the way it appeared to me at the time and bob Jones simply faded away from the political scene once he had done the job for his financial backers!

This of course is just my personal opinion of events around me at that time!

Social Credit achieved just over 20% of the vote at the previous election and got two seats, and were never in danger of being on the Treasury benches.

I also don't follow your reasoning - are you saying that Bob Jones was doing a hatchjob for someone on the Government?
Or Social Credit?

Why would his "financial backers" want a National Govt. dismissed?
Why would they want Social Credit knobbled?

My recollection of the time is that people who voted Social Credit either did it as a protest or because of their local candidate (which I did). I also recall that Bob Jones wanted to destroy the National Party, which seems to be at odds with your theories...

[oldrider]

Social Credit achieved just over 20% of the vote at the previous election and got two seats, and were never in danger of being on the Treasury benches.

FPP is a crock, if it went by number of votes Labour would always have been the government!

I also don't follow your reasoning - are you saying that Bob Jones was doing a hatchjob for someone on the Government?
Or Social Credit?

Social Credit.

Why would his "financial backers" want a National Govt. dismissed?

National and Labour are still there, nothings changed there.

Why would they want Social Credit knobbled?

Social Credit was a threat to the current banking systems and practices.

My recollection of the time is that people who voted Social Credit either did it as a protest or because of their local candidate (which I did).

True but I voted Social Credit because I think it is a better system than the status quo!

I also recall that Bob Jones wanted to destroy the National Party, which seems to be at odds with your theories...

That was just a load of theatrical bullshit to distract voters from the real issues!

Rob Muldoon was past his use by date!

He just carried on diminishing his political influence and sucked on the public tit until they finally threw him out and then he completed the act by dying!

Is that clear enough for you?

[Oscar]

Is that clear enough for you?

Nope.
What proof have you of this Social Credit / Bob Jones conspiracy (which, considering Bob Jones' comments at the time is right up there with "Lancaster Bomber found on the Moon")?

[oldrider]

FFS I told you that this is just my opinion of what took place, get over it!

[Oscar]

FFS I told you that this is just my opinion of what took place, get over it!

You should ask Mashman for some lessons on consipracy theories.
You're no fun.