The welfare state

[rainman]

it would be phased in and in reality wouldn't reach 0.

So your big idea is you want to reduce company tax a little?

Providing an environment for companies to grow and become strong is clearly fucking stupid.... And what's more, we don't actually need companies anyway because the likes of yourself are perfectly able to find jobs on your own, and hell, if you can't, you can always go on the dole right.

It's considered poor form in logical debate to state your own conclusions in support of your argument..

And your second sentence in that quote is hilarious, considering I get 100% of my income from my own company.

Globally, company taxes average 25%. Few countries have no company tax....the evidence is against it.

Sssshh! Don't ruin the fun by bringing reality in to this.

[The Stranger:Me]

Globally, company taxes average 25%. Few countries have no company tax.

http://support.microsoft.com/default...b;en-us;316529

Much as I like your idea Stranger, the evidence is against it. Consider economic powerhouses such as China (25%), Japan (40%), Germany (29%), and the United States (0-35%).

If we reduced company tax to Zero, people would rearrange their affairs to keep as much money in their companies as possible. We know that, from existing efforts to move income to the lowest taxed enitity eg. spreading it among your children - tax law was amended to stop that.

The fairest tax system is one flat tax across everybody. Rodger Douglas tried - and he was correct.

Yes, I readily accept that zero is unworkable. Just as I pointed out on 2 previous occasions, post 260 and again in post 392 where I go on to say I use zero as an example to provoke thought - a what if scenario. In post 260 I say that I doubt it would get below 20% and give a range of between 20 - 25%.
Whilst I understand that someone not closely following the thread may not have picked up on these, they were both replies to rainman and to which he also replied - but some are slow to take clue.
My mistake of course was trying to provoke thought in my original post on the matter.

There are numerous reasons why 0 is not practically possible and most who have raised that have only scratched the surface. But regardless of that. People keeping money in their companies if you will note from my first post on the subject is an effect that I had intended. Do you think that would make for healthier companies?
Would a healthier company be more or less likely to hire more staff?

Re your economic powerhouses - well good luck there. There are myriad other issues to consider. The average dole bludger in NZ earns more in a week than the average Chinese worker earns in a month. Perhaps we should apply their solution to NZ? How do you think rainman will react to his new salary?
We could model our economy on the good old US of A, but I doubt we could actually borrow 14 trillion dollars.
And it's not like things were looking particularly rosey in Japan pre quake either. Still, I suppose we do share the same work ethic and skills in general.

Point is - they have their problems too.

We have heard talk of pay parity with Australia ha (ha fucking ha ha ha)! Seriously, ANY thought of that through conventional means is preposterous. Look at the natural resources they have.
IF we are to even come close we need an advantage. We desperately need to support business. That support may well not be "fair", but what in life is?

But hey, I'm all open to a better approach.

RD's flat tax is not looking too far off my approach now really is it. Though it has to be predicated on a reduction in govt spending. I wouldn't mind betting he is betting on a reduction in company tax to soak up unemployment for that. The down side I see to that is that governments don't reduce spending, instead they find new and creative ways to spend everything they get their hands on. My approach recognises this reality.

[The Stranger:Me]

So your big idea is you want to reduce company tax a little?

I want to reduce company tax sufficiently.
I can see you have trouble working stuff out on your own, so I give up on try to plant ideas for you to think through - It's really not your strong point.
You see, were you to reduce company tax too far a number of problems would arise to stifle growth.
For one, foreign manufacturers would cry foul and implore their governments to impose punitive tarrifs on the import of our goods - thus stifling growth.
Another problem would be that if (as I anticipate) unemployment were to be soaked up we would then be in a situation where we have a shortage of labour, which would lead to very high wages, again stifling growth.
Another issue is that some companies don't earn all of their income in NZ (say Fontera). So you (as in the general public at large) don't actually pay all of their tax at the moment, so why should you pick up this entire bill for them now?
Then there is the issue of foreign companies exporting their profits both to and from NZ.

So yes my big idea is to reduce it a little at a time over a period and to monitor these factors (and account for them in various other ways) until unemployment reaches a suitable level (above zero). What makes it a big idea - the fact that little people can't let go their ideologies to see past the end of their noses and would whine like stuck pigs at the thought.

It's considered poor form in logical debate to state your own conclusions in support of your argument..
.

Logical debate? With you? BWAHAHAHAHA, perhaps when you learn to read maybe.

[rainman]

some are slow to take clue.
...
My mistake of course was trying to provoke thought in my original post on the matter.

I had noticed that. Here's a thought-provoking point, perhaps, using your "tax more, get less, tax less, get more" logic: what happens when you tax companies less and individual taxpayers more? You get more companies and fewer individual taxpayers, perhaps? So far so good, possibility of further goodness developing from there maybe, but what when the bottom 64% of companies are already 1-5 employees or smaller, and the top 47% of employees are employed by fewer than 2000 companies? It's not a raw volume game here in NZ - we get 145,000 new company registrations a year as it is (unfortunately 137,000 declare bankruptcy every year, but hey, gotta love a tryer, right? Give it a go mate, she'll be right?).

What we are lacking is not low tax, or more companies, or yet another fucking oversimplistic idea about tax to argue over. It's competence, nouse in negotiations, market access, quality product, capable management, infrastructure, people development skills, ability to manage at scale, mature risk orientation, long-term and strategic thinking, and yes, better wages so we can buy our own stuff... The things that make good mid-sized companies into great and successful larger companies. When was our last company success story that wasn't farming and didn't just end up being bought out overseas? Who grew heaps of jobs? In NZ, that is?

In short: we're actually a bit shit. (A bit) low (er)tax won't fix that.

How do you think rainman will react to his new salary?

Considering the amount I earn from a salary is precisely zero, and that is unlikely to change anytime soon, if I were pedantic I'd say it'd make no difference. As it happens, the Chinese "managed market" approach is one model that structurally stands more likelihood of success than raw freemarketarianism in the near future, somewhat ironically. I'd hate it though, too much of a shit stirrer, it would be mere weeks before the comrades put me in jail.

Your later post sounds like you're starting to think this through a bit more. Excellent. But it still sounds to me like you're describing the Greek tax model. And that isn't working so well for them, even right there next to European markets, despite them following your recipe for success and cutting company tax rates (a little). Their unemployment curve is up up up.

[The Stranger:Me]

What we are lacking is not low tax, or more companies, or yet another fucking oversimplistic idea about tax to argue over. It's competence, nouse in negotiations, market access, quality product, capable management, infrastructure, people development skills, ability to manage at scale, mature risk orientation, long-term and strategic thinking, and yes, better wages so we can buy our own stuff.

So now you're in government and have this great idea. What are you going to do to achieve these goals?

[The Stranger:Me]

But it still sounds to me like you're describing the Greek tax model. And that isn't working so well for them, even right there next to European markets, despite them following your recipe for success and cutting company tax rates (a little). Their unemployment curve is up up up.

Thank you, now I see you are really getting to grips with it, awesome.
If we compare this chart of Greeces corporate tax rate to this chart of unemployment what do we see?
That's right a direct corelation - up until the global financial crisis hit.

As noted above however, direct comparrisons between different countries are not really valid. They had significantly wider issues when the crisis hit which we don't have.

The interesting thing is they have announced that they plan to cut further the corporate tax rate - so I guess having tried it they really wouldn't have a clue would they.

[superman]

John Key says....

IMPROVING OUR WELFARE SYSTEM
This week I announced a ministerial group to lead work on improving New Zealand's welfare system.
I want this country to have a welfare system that encourages personal responsibility, helps people into paid jobs, and protects our most vulnerable.
The independent Welfare Working Group's recent report shows our welfare system isn't working as well as it could.
We have to do better for hardworking taxpayers, for beneficiaries who are falling far short of their potential, and for children growing up in welfare-dependent households.
Long-term welfare dependency robs people of confidence, motivation and aspiration. Ultimately it can rob their children of these things, too.
This Government is not prepared to leave this large group of New Zealanders behind. I'm ambitious for what we can achieve in this area, and I look forward to announcing our welfare reform policies before the election

I'm so glad that Labour and National are finally going further left and right wing again. Was rather annoying last election how centre National became as well as Labour when they were both trying to dip into eachothers vote coffers. Wonder how convinced average Joe will be of right-wing policies this coming election.

[BoristheBiter]

Isn't that Ironbridge radio nonsense situation kinda similar? Foreign debt I mean? After all that $49,000,000 (quoted somewhere) was probably earmarked for the PM's house to be renovated or somefink... so "we" have to fund the shortfall by borrowing more or cutting services?

You really should pay attention to the news as it is premiere house that is being renovated.

John Key says....

IMPROVING OUR WELFARE SYSTEM
This week I announced a ministerial group to lead work on improving New Zealand's welfare system.
I want this country to have a welfare system that encourages personal responsibility, helps people into paid jobs, and protects our most vulnerable.
The independent Welfare Working Group's recent report shows our welfare system isn't working as well as it could.
We have to do better for hardworking taxpayers, for beneficiaries who are falling far short of their potential, and for children growing up in welfare-dependent households.
Long-term welfare dependency robs people of confidence, motivation and aspiration. Ultimately it can rob their children of these things, too.
This Government is not prepared to leave this large group of New Zealanders behind. I'm ambitious for what we can achieve in this area, and I look forward to announcing our welfare reform policies before the election

I'm so glad that Labour and National are finally going further left and right wing again. Was rather annoying last election how centre National became as well as Labour when they were both trying to dip into eachothers vote coffers. Wonder how convinced average Joe will be of right-wing policies this coming election.

About time too.

[mashman]

John Key says....

IMPROVING OUR WELFARE SYSTEM
This week I announced a ministerial group to lead work on improving New Zealand's welfare system.
I want this country to have a welfare system that encourages personal responsibility, helps people into paid jobs, and protects our most vulnerable.
The independent Welfare Working Group's recent report shows our welfare system isn't working as well as it could.
We have to do better for hardworking taxpayers, for beneficiaries who are falling far short of their potential, and for children growing up in welfare-dependent households.
Long-term welfare dependency robs people of confidence, motivation and aspiration. Ultimately it can rob their children of these things, too.
This Government is not prepared to leave this large group of New Zealanders behind. I'm ambitious for what we can achieve in this area, and I look forward to announcing our welfare reform policies before the election

I'm so glad that Labour and National are finally going further left and right wing again. Was rather annoying last election how centre National became as well as Labour when they were both trying to dip into eachothers vote coffers. Wonder how convinced average Joe will be of right-wing policies this coming election.

... bunch of ignorant cunts the lot of 'em... we want to help people reach their potential irrespective of wether they'd like to or not... ha ha ha ha ha ha haaaaaaaaaaaaa... that attitude is gonna work

You really should pay attention to the news as it is premiere house that is being renovated.

hee hee... yeah I know... they also had the $40+ million upgrade of the gov gens mansion too... but that's money well spent too

[BoristheBiter]

hee hee... yeah I know... they also had the $40+ million upgrade of the gov gens mansion too... but that's money well spent too

You are starting to sound more and more like a labour lacky with every post.
You just make up any old shit just to make a noise and when you are picked up on it you just say "i knew that". Its getting very boring now.

I think you should be sent to PD for excessive use of emoticons.

[oneofsix]

You are starting to sound more and more like a labour lacky with every post.
You just make up any old shit just to make a noise and when you are picked up on it you just say "i knew that". Its getting very boring now.

I think you should be sent to PD for excessive use of emoticons.

Awl looks like some one bit the biter : :

[BoristheBiter]

Awl looks like some one bit the biter : :

I bit about a month ago and am still paying for it.

[oneofsix]

I bit about a month ago and am still paying for it.

aint KB fun?
Helps me get through my day

[BoristheBiter]

aint KB fun?
Helps me get through my day

It's the reason i get up in the morning.

[Oscar]

Do the govt take a fixed rate? or all of it because they own the SOE anyway? Anything not going to the govt coffers, that currently does, is an extra outgoing in my eyes. So DIVIDENDS

You have no clue, do you?