How much longer do we have for private motor vehicles?

[Brian d marge]

Yes, but your point is valid.

We will run out of copper, cadmium, and lithium to make our electric cars from long before we run out of the coal we will be using to charge their batteries.

New Zealand has a high percentage of electricity generated from renewable sources.

But every electric car that enters service will add demand that will be met from our non renewable resources, as the renewable ones are already fully committed.

And that electric car uses rare metals, dug up by a diesel powered digger, transported to to coal fired foundry in a diesel truck, and then delivered all around the would in oil powered ships.

The hybrid car is even worse. Just like the batteries in my laptop, by 5-7 years of age, they offer little storage.

They still weigh 500kg, so in NZ with an average fleet age of 13 years, a hybrid is likely to spend 2/3rds of its life as an underpowered petrol car carting around 500kg of unusable waste.

Maybe banning electric or hybrid vehicles would be a good first step in saving the planet.

Small diesel .....Enfields! yeah!

Stephen

[superman]

What do you think will substitute for oil?

Bio-fuel? Well the amount of land needed to produce enough supply of bio-fuel is very wasteful...

Synthetic fuel is made from coal? We still have lots of coal... there we go.

[bogan]

Bio-fuel? Well the amount of land needed to produce enough supply of bio-fuel is very wasteful...

Synthetic fuel is made from coal? We still have lots of coal... there we go.

Or hydrogen, the separators powered by orbital solar power generators. Just send some up with the next space shuttle

[avgas]

As we pass the crest of peak oil production

Got a reference on this......because if its OPEC your a fool.
We have barely touch 20% reserves......

[rainman]

Bio-fuel? Well the amount of land needed to produce enough supply of bio-fuel is very wasteful...

Synthetic fuel is made from coal? We still have lots of coal... there we go.

Last time we played around with ramping up biofuel, food prices shot up, there were food riots in lots of places, and a whole lot more people than usual starved. Not really an option.

CTL is a maybe if you exclude a) the associated environmental destruction/climate change issues, and b) the time to ramp up the CTL plants. Not an option if we have already peaked, basically. But something we (humanity, not NZ) might well try.

Or hydrogen, the separators powered by orbital solar power generators. Just send some up with the next space shuttle

Hydrogen isn't an energy source. Unless Cella or similar come up with a workable option as discussed up-thread, there is no distribution facility. How long do you think it would take to build and deploy orbital solar powered electrolysis units, and at what cost?

Of course you could do the electrolysis on earth but then you have the problem that sunny places are usually dry, so moving water to them or hydrogen away become not insignificant logistical challenges. Some expense involved, certainly.

My favourite replacement: efficiency. There's a lot of waste we can wring out of the system while we actively work to build some alternative options.

Ha! Who am I kidding? We'll ignore this until it becomes a bigger crisis, just like we always have.

[Ocean1]

Hydrogen isn't an energy source.

Then neither is any other chemically convertible fuel asset.

Allow me: The largest planet in our system is literally made of hydrogen. I’d say that implies no shortage of energy, least of all to transport it.

Now, what technology are we missing to make it happen?



Hint: not a very big number.

[bogan]

Hydrogen isn't an energy source. Unless Cella or similar come up with a workable option as discussed up-thread, there is no distribution facility. How long do you think it would take to build and deploy orbital solar powered electrolysis units, and at what cost?

Of course you could do the electrolysis on earth but then you have the problem that sunny places are usually dry, so moving water to them or hydrogen away become not insignificant logistical challenges. Some expense involved, certainly.

My favourite replacement: efficiency. There's a lot of waste we can wring out of the system while we actively work to build some alternative options.

Ha! Who am I kidding? We'll ignore this until it becomes a bigger crisis, just like we always have.

Who said it would be used as an energy source? Simply use it as energy storage, beam down some concentrated sunlight to somewhere there is heaps of water to convert to hydrogen. They did some testing a while ago, but some dudes Aston Martin got blown up so it's been put on the backburner I think.

[rainman]

Then neither is any other chemically convertible fuel asset.

What I mean is there is no handy place where you can simply drill it out of a hole or mine it our of some seam, unlike current fuels. There are no large H deposits just waiting to be hoovered up - it's less than 1 ppm.

Not to say you can't produce hydrogen and burn it, but electrolysis is inherently lossy. Therefore it's only useful if you have a) a relatively abundant energy source you can use to make the H, b) lots of water (easy), and c) a convenient way to move the H around (tricky as it's a bit small and gaseous and tends to mess with many metals - unless Cella Energy is on to something, and don't die in an unfortunate accident, that is).

Most other methods require hydrocarbon sources anyway.

So I don't see how we will scale up H as a fuel source to be a replacement for our current oil use in less than 15-20 years, unless we abandon growth. If we get moving, it may make up some of the decline, but it's no silver bullet.

beam down some concentrated sunlight to somewhere there is heaps of water to convert to hydrogen.

So, not cheap and not soon.

[scumdog]

.....yet we have more gas guzzling SUV's on our roads than we have ever had.

Mostly with one occupant - who is undoubtedly moaning about the cost of fuel...

[Ocean1]

So I don't see how we will scale up H as a fuel source to be a replacement for our current oil use in less than 15-20 years.

Can't remember where I found it but there's a reasonably detailed thesis somewhere that demonstrated that the cost of a hydrogen fuel storage and delivery infrastructure would be the same as the existing hydrocarbon one.

I'd be surprised if the cost of that infrastructure exceeded a couple of years gross profit from the sale of petrol.

[Naki Rat]

Running out of economically extractable oil is but one of the problems humans face as we plunder Earth of all and sundry. We are also heading rapidly towards the bottom of the barrel in terms of food stocks, farmable ground, mineral resources, fish stocks, clean water, unpolluted air and social cohesion.

Take the time to watch HOME The Movie and be prepared to be stunned by both the brilliant HD cinematography and the sobering message this film delivers. Also now available on DVD and Blu-Ray.

[Indiana_Jones]

Fuck it, may as well by a Honda

-Indy

[Big Dave]

Indiana. Don't even joke about it. Seriously.

Wait till I get my cameras.

[Indiana_Jones]

Indiana. Don't even joke about it. Seriously.

Wait till I get my cameras.

I know BD, but shit this thread is all doom and gloom!

and cameras? are we remaking 'Debbie does Dallas'?

-Indy

[Winston001]

Hint: not a very big number.

Yeah? Um...no numbers unless you are referring to atomics: antimatter? The LHC has made good progress but the stuff is a bitch to work with.

Atomic fusion. The Joint European Torus (JET) project has a working torus. Again, its tough to engineer near total-energy release but at least they can deal with H which is light.


Anyway I agree with you. There is heaps of energy available, infinite in current human terms. We just need physics and metals technology to advance to the point where we can release and harness that energy.

Oh - and then we have to devise a simple transportable form of the energy to where it can be used.

Dang - good old oil is looking better all the time...