Benefits

[mashman]

Or the schooling they DIDN'T receive.

Often by their own actions.

More than a few mums just see school as a way to get the kids out of the house (do the kids actually GO to school?)

And some kids make no attempt to learn while at school and disrupt others if they go there at all.

And some kids are actively discouraged from attending school or learning if they do go to school.

So they set themselves on a path to being a leech on society.....

What utter poop. You've just described my school career (more or less) and I ain't exactly a leech on society. Try the stereotype behind door number 2, perhaps it will fit

[avgas]

awwwwwwwww

there's also just as much of a chance that you'll end up in a string of shitty jobs...

I found a bit of string in some pigshit once as a kid. Pulling it out I am pretty sure it was endless.
Same applies here.
I don't care if people have an endless string of pointless jobs, so long as they don't cost me in mine. Its the same reasoning I use with people who smoke, drink, go to church on sunday. I don't care 2 flicks for them so long as they don't cost me directly.

[avgas]

And before we start stoning people for being lazy, might we spend time and have a look at were those generations of unemployed/unemployable dole abuser live, how was the schooling they recieved etc.

This is true.
Perhaps the easier solution would be to simply terminate all people who apply for a benefit. Break the cycle.

Works for rabbits that get into the vegies.

[Woodman]

And who still employs people over 50?

I do, or close to 50 anyway.

Less sick days.
Good work ethics.
Only need to be told once.
Lots of inititiative.

[shrub]

The 2nd/3rd generation welfare abusers, how many are there, how much money is spend on them.....real dollar figures not just simple propaganda. The same counts for the loose women and girls that have babys to get a benefit, all on their own without the help of a man....it just does not add up.

A very, very good point. I have just read the Welfare Working Group report on reducing long term benefit dependency, and they claim that: "12,000 people aged 28-64 years on the Unemployment Benefit who have spent more than 5 years out of the past 10 years on a benefit (as at June 2009)", which is a lot of people, but still only 0.51% of the labour force or 0.27% of the population (http://www.dol.govt.nz/publications/...lfs-jun-11.pdf). 0.27% of the population means 1 person in 370 is a long term dole bludger. Is that a big problem? I don't think so.

And before we start stoning people for being lazy, might we spend time and have a look at were those generations of unemployed/unemployable dole abuser live, how was the schooling they recieved etc.

Odds are pretty good that 99% of those 12,000 didn't grow up in the kind of home we did. I'd lay money that very few of them had completed school and even less had done further training. How many people who went to a private/high decile school and had parents working are long term unemployed?

In any case there is no profit for business in 100% employment as wages usually go up and finding staff is a bit harder than in an economy were good jobs paying living wages are spare. We need under educated cheap labor to do certain jobs, always did, always will, and the more unemployed people a country has the cheaper wages get....!

Funny you should say that. Low unemployment is a huge problem for the business sector, and I was talking to a prominent local businessman a couple of weeks ago who commented that he was looking for staff and had never had so many good applicants, and how low the income expectations were. He was very pleased.

The proposals coming from the Welfare Reform Group are all about shaming....
forcing people to be spot tested for drug abuse?
Are poor people now all criminals?
Are all single mothers dope heads? Are all single dads P cooks?
Will we as a society really allow for people to be treated like criminals before they have committed a crime, to make sure they are humbled, scared, humiliated and just don't apply for that benefit they should apply for?
And this is in the interest for whom? ?
So no money for societal welfare, but money for random drug testing of poor people needing financial assistance?

I just don't get how this can be considered sound politics.

Now I disagree - this is outstandingly good politics. The moral majority are delighted because it shows Something Is Being Done, and finally our political leaders are Getting Tough On Benefit Abuse. Just like the card system Uncle John announced the other day - it will affect 2600 people (0.06% of the population) and cost $20,000,000, yet he got a standing ovation!!!!. It achieves nothing positive for society, the economy or the people concerned, but by God it wins votes.

[shrub]

I found a bit of string in some pigshit once as a kid. Pulling it out I am pretty sure it was endless.
Same applies here.
I don't care if people have an endless string of pointless jobs, so long as they don't cost me in mine. Its the same reasoning I use with people who smoke, drink, go to church on sunday. I don't care 2 flicks for them so long as they don't cost me directly.

Sadly they do. I'm guessing a highly successful type such as yourself earns $250,000 (if it's more, my apologies for underestimating your status) which means the government will steal around $73,000 from you in tax. Now the $12,000 long term unemployed cost around $97,000,000 in tax. The total tax take is $50bn and personal tax and GST make up 62% of that, so if you do the numbers it works out that over the next year those bludging pricks will cost you $87.84! WELL YOU MIGHT BE ANGRY, that is 0.04% of your income! However for the schmucks on the average wage of $54k pa, those wasters will only pay the long term dole bludgers $11.00 this year, it sucks to be you huh?

[oneofsix]

[QUOTE=shrub;1130142512]A very, very good point. I have just read the Welfare Working Group report on reducing long term benefit dependency, and they claim that: "12,000 people aged 28-64 years on the Unemployment Benefit who have spent more than 5 years out of the past 10 years on a benefit (as at June 2009)", which is a lot of people, but still only 0.51% of the labour force or 0.27% of the population (http://www.dol.govt.nz/publications/...lfs-jun-11.pdf). 0.27% of the population means 1 person in 370 is a long term dole bludger. Is that a big problem? I don't think so. [QUOTE]
factor in the 60-65 year olds, even creep in to the older 50s, and you have people that are nearly retired deciding they will wait it out as they are made to feel unemployable. Also their parents retired at 60 so why try had to get a job. Just a guess going from a sample of one but if you are made redundant at 60+ why not.

Now I disagree - this is outstandingly good politics. The moral majority are delighted because it shows Something Is Being Done, and finally our political leaders are Getting Tough On Benefit Abuse. Just like the card system Uncle John announced the other day - it will affect 2600 people (0.06% of the population) and cost $20,000,000, yet he got a standing ovation!!!!. It achieves nothing positive for society, the economy or the people concerned, but by God it wins votes.

Not hard to get a standing ovation when preaching to the converted. People see the obvious lay a bouts or what they look for and ignore all the school leavers looking hard for jobs that will be negatively affected by this victimization BS

[shrub]

Not hard to get a standing ovation when preaching to the converted. People see the obvious lay a bouts or what they look for and ignore all the school leavers looking hard for jobs that will be negatively affected by this victimization BS

And that's the problem. We don't really care about the unemployed, especially the young, because we're not them. I'm OK - if I send half a dozen emails by the end of the day I will have more work than I know what to do with, but I have an education, experience, networks but most of all; I am a confident, tall, white, male with a wardrobe of suits and no visible tattoos. That means a hell of a lot and probably opens more doors than all my degrees and experience.

But what about the people that don't have my advantages? Sure, I have worked hard to get where I am, but I had a head start that the people who have grown up in 2nd and 3rd generation poverty, who haven't been brought up to value learning and for whom "working" is something that other people do. Do we ignore them and hope they go away by giving them just enough money to survive and hiring public servants to keep them under control? Do we just hope that they will wake up, get off their arses and get a job?

[BoristheBiter]

A very, very good point. I have just read the Welfare Working Group report on reducing long term benefit dependency, and they claim that: "12,000 people aged 28-64 years on the Unemployment Benefit who have spent more than 5 years out of the past 10 years on a benefit (as at June 2009)", which is a lot of people, but still only 0.51% of the labour force or 0.27% of the population (http://www.dol.govt.nz/publications/...lfs-jun-11.pdf). 0.27% of the population means 1 person in 370 is a long term dole bludger. Is that a big problem? I don't think so.

.

So what has happened to the 15-28 year olds? and yes i know that you can't claim a benefit until 17.

And you also haven't included those on the sick or invalids benefit.

[Str8 Jacket]

So what has happened to the 15-28 year olds? and yes i know that you can't claim a benefit until 17.

And you also haven't included those on the sick or invalids benefit.

I was in the independent youth benefit when I was 15 and still at school. In order to receive this benefit I had to live independently from a caregiver, attend school a certain number of days per year or be actively seeking work (incl volunteer work). Not sure if this still happens?

[BoristheBiter]

I was in the independent youth benefit when I was 15 and still at school. In order to receive this benefit I had to live independently from a caregiver, attend school a certain number of days per year or be actively seeking work (incl volunteer work). Not sure if this still happens?

To apply now you have to show that you can't live at home, or something along those lines, but otherwise it is expected for the family to pay for them until they become 18.

[Grasshopperus]

Ha, I love the high unemployment rate.

It means that I can staff my factory with relatively skilled workers but continue to pay them only a hair above minimum wage. Because my costs are low my product can compete internationally which is actually good for NZ's balance of payments. If there was low unemployment I'd have to spend more effort finding good people and I'd definitely have to pay them more too.

High unemployment means low costs of production. It affects the price of everything around you, and as relatively wealthy people you're all benefiting from it too. That's how you can afford your big screen TVs, Sky subscriptions and $200+ adidas jerseys all while living lifestyles that were unattainable, even by royalty, 100 years ago. We're all fatter, warmer and less-stressed than ever. Rejoice.

[Str8 Jacket]

To apply now you have to show that you can't live at home, or something along those lines, but otherwise it is expected for the family to pay for them until they become 18.

Yep, exactly the same then. Shame that I got kicked out of school for not being able to afford my (supposedly voluntary) fees..... I lived on $25 a week grocery $$, which wasn't too bad in the mid 90's but still bad. Made me get my arse into an apprenticeship with about the same pay....

[oneofsix]

And that's the problem. We don't really care about the unemployed, especially the young, because we're not them. I'm OK - if I send half a dozen emails by the end of the day I will have more work than I know what to do with, but I have an education, experience, networks but most of all; I am a confident, tall, white, male with a wardrobe of suits and no visible tattoos. That means a hell of a lot and probably opens more doors than all my degrees and experience.

But what about the people that don't have my advantages? Sure, I have worked hard to get where I am, but I had a head start that the people who have grown up in 2nd and 3rd generation poverty, who haven't been brought up to value learning and for whom "working" is something that other people do. Do we ignore them and hope they go away by giving them just enough money to survive and hiring public servants to keep them under control? Do we just hope that they will wake up, get off their arses and get a job?

hiring public servants isn't an option, the Nats have just added a whole heap of those to the migration figures.
wake and get a job where? Remember the employers don't want full employment as it pushes wages up but these are the same people who don't want to pay to keep a pool of workers to force wagers down. Sounds like someone wants their cake and to consume it as well, this usually works for the big guys as they get the govt. of the day to make the workers and small employers pay to help them keep their wage bills down.

[Banditbandit]

Ha, I love the high unemployment rate.

It means that I can staff my factory with relatively skilled workers but continue to pay them only a hair above minimum wage. Because my costs are low my product can compete internationally which is actually good for NZ's balance of payments. If there was low unemployment I'd have to spend more effort finding good people and I'd definitely have to pay them more too.

High unemployment means low costs of production. It affects the price of everything around you, and as relatively wealthy people you're all benefiting from it too. That's how you can afford your big screen TVs, Sky subscriptions and $200+ adidas jerseys all while living lifestyles that were unattainable, even by royalty, 100 years ago. We're all fatter, warmer and less-stressed than ever. Rejoice.

Yes - that's all true .. but how does that really benefit GodZone? Sure it improves our balance of payments - but to what end ? High unemployment, High social costs ... etc etc .. and you make a profit ... and the rest suffer ...

What happens to the poor buggas you pay fuck all to - who can't afford to get their kids educated ... who can't afford the Kiwi dream of home ownership ... who can't afford the cheap big flat screen tvs ... sky .. and adidas jerseys ...

So our balance of payments is better and those of us who can afford them get cheaper goodies ..