Don Brash: "We should decriminalise marijuana"

[Winston001]

Not according to Professor Jane Kelsey.

Fair enough, I respect her but it depends upon what parameters she gives an opinion.

For example, NZ found the transition from Fortress New Zealand (essentially Rob Muldoon's vision) to monetarist open economics very difficult.

Nevertheless it was benign compared with the fall of the Iron Curtain. Those countries moved overnight from state repression (and support) to a very cold reality because their production was at the point of collapse.

"Portugal is a developed country with an advanced and high-income economy, with a very high Human Development Index. It has the world's 19th-highest quality-of-life, one of the top health care systems, and it's also one of the world's most globalized and peaceful nations."

.......

**Edit - Also:

"Portugal has arguably the most liberal laws concerning possession of illicit drugs in the Western world. In 2001 Portugal decriminalized possession of effectively all drugs that are still illegal in other developed nations including, but not limited to, marijuana, cocaine, heroin, and LSD. While possession is legal, trafficking and possession of more than "10 days worth of personal use" are still punishable by jail time and fines. People caught with small amounts of any drug are given the choice to go to a rehab facility, and may refuse treatment without consequences. Despite criticism from other European nations, who stated Portugal's drug consumption would tremendously increase, overall drug use rose only slightly, whilst use among teenagers dropped, along with the number of HIV infection cases, which had dropped 50% by 2009."

Fuck I love wikipedia.

Yeah. I'm not convinced Portugal is as highly rated today and it is generally regarded as one of Europe's poor on a par with Greece.

I have no view on their drug liberalisation, simply wonder why other nations haven't followed suit. For example, the liberal places such as the Netherlands, Sweden, Finland, Denmark. They are full of hippies and you'd expect them to have adopted the same policies years ago.

Why not?

[Zedder]

Fair enough, I respect her but it depends upon what parameters she gives an opinion.

For example, NZ found the transition from Fortress New Zealand (essentially Rob Muldoon's vision) to monetarist open economics very difficult.

Nevertheless it was benign compared with the fall of the Iron Curtain. Those countries moved overnight from state repression (and support) to a very cold reality because their production was at the point of collapse.



Yeah. I'm not convinced Portugal is as highly rated today and it is generally regarded as one of Europe's poor on a par with Greece.

I have no view on their drug liberalisation, simply wonder why other nations haven't followed suit. For example, the liberal places such as the Netherlands, Sweden, Finland, Denmark. They are full of hippies and you'd expect them to have adopted the same policies years ago.

Why not?

Far from benign for New Zealand Winston.

Professor Kelsey shows the application of pure neo-liberal economic theory had a far reaching economic, social, democratic and cultural downside that we're still coming to terms with today. Have a read of the book if you get the chance.

As far as Portugal goes, I tend to agree, it's not something that's been copied in other liberal countries.

[jazfender]

I have no view on their drug liberalisation, simply wonder why other nations haven't followed suit. For example, the liberal places such as the Netherlands, Sweden, Finland, Denmark. They are full of hippies and you'd expect them to have adopted the same policies years ago.

Why not?

I think there could be any number of reasons for why they haven't which has nothing to do with "the Portugal experiment".

Public opinion might be one.

[Zedder]

I think there could be any number of reasons for why they haven't which has nothing to do with "the Portugal experiment".

Public opinion might be one.

Look Jazfender, stop this talk or you could get a visit from Sgt. Stadanko.

[Winston001]

Far from benign for New Zealand Winston.

Professor Kelsey shows the application of pure neo-liberal economic theory had a far reaching economic, social, democratic and cultural downside that we're still coming to terms with today. Have a read of the book if you get the chance.

She's written a few - which one?

We're going off-topic but despite all the angst and mis-remembered facts regarding the "Rogernomics" changes, what do we have to complain about today?

Consumer goods which many consider essential have fallen markedly in cost since 1984 (cars, motorcycles, computers, cellphones, furniture etc etc). Supermarkets are always busy. Very expensive cafes and bars line main streets and are full of people - these didn't even exist in 1984.

We have stadiums dotted around the country, good roads (considering we are a mountainous set of islands with only 4 million), excellent hospitals, schools, universities, polytechs. Average people own McMansions compared to our parents generation.

Beautiful sweeping beaches, verdant bush, fishing, hunting, tramping, solitude when you need it.

Honestly I can't see what people (including Jane Kelsey) moan about.

[Edbear]

She's written a few - which one?

We're going off-topic but despite all the angst and mis-remembered facts regarding the "Rogernomics" changes, what do we have to complain about today?

Consumer goods which many consider essential have fallen markedly in cost since 1984 (cars, motorcycles, computers, cellphones, furniture etc etc). Supermarkets are always busy. Very expensive cafes and bars line main streets and are full of people - these didn't even exist in 1984.

We have stadiums dotted around the country, good roads (considering we are a mountainous set of islands with only 4 million), excellent hospitals, schools, universities, polytechs. Average people own McMansions compared to our parents generation.

Beautiful sweeping beaches, verdant bush, fishing, hunting, tramping, solitude when you need it.

Honestly I can't see what people (including Jane Kelsey) moan about.

Some see a glass half full, some see the glass half empty...

[Zedder]

She's written a few - which one?

We're going off-topic but despite all the angst and mis-remembered facts regarding the "Rogernomics" changes, what do we have to complain about today?

Consumer goods which many consider essential have fallen markedly in cost since 1984 (cars, motorcycles, computers, cellphones, furniture etc etc). Supermarkets are always busy. Very expensive cafes and bars line main streets and are full of people - these didn't even exist in 1984.

We have stadiums dotted around the country, good roads (considering we are a mountainous set of islands with only 4 million), excellent hospitals, schools, universities, polytechs. Average people own McMansions compared to our parents generation.

Beautiful sweeping beaches, verdant bush, fishing, hunting, tramping, solitude when you need it.

Honestly I can't see what people (including Jane Kelsey) moan about.

The book is called "The New Zealand Experiment", sorry, I thought from what you wrote earlier you knew of it. Who said she was moaning?

[sidecar bob]

Is altering your mental cognition using introduced chemicals actually a good thing?

Nope, in my experience it makes people as dumb as fuck, while arguing that black is white with a smug superior attitude.
It also makes people paticularly agressive if they havent had their daily fix, & also makes people punch their racing sponsor in the head if they dont get given what they want. Hey, only my experience though, so probably not valid because its not based on a huge study & dosent paint dope in a great light.

[Edbear]

Nope, in my experience it makes people as dumb as fuck, while arguing that black is white with a smug superior attitude.
It also makes people paticularly agressive if they havent had their daily fix, & also makes people punch their racing sponsor in the head if they dont get given what they want. Hey, only my experience though, so probably not valid because its not based on a huge study & dosent paint dope in a great light.

Now you do realise that in this discussion, personal experience first hand from the opposite point of view is automatically invalid...

Even qualified medical specialists in drug effects really have no idea what they are talking about, neither do any emergency or hospital staff, Drs. and psych experts who deal with it on a daily basis, really know anything much at all as they önly see the "bad side.."

As for law enforcement officers and court staff, lawyers and judges, hell, what do they know about anything?

[Usarka]

Even qualified medical specialists in drug effects really have no idea what they are talking about, neither do any emergency or hospital staff, Drs. and psych experts who deal with it on a daily basis, really know anything much at all as they önly see the "bad side.."

I disagree. If you asked a psych worker whether they smoked weed there is no way they'd say that they did unless you're a personal friend.

I do know a psych worker who reckons that the jury is out on pot and there are a lot of positive benefits for some conditions. And yes he smokes occassionaly. And drinks. And sometimes uses sample drus sent to him.....

[Edbear]

I disagree. If you asked a psych worker whether they smoked weed there is no way they'd say that they did unless you're a personal friend.

I do know a psych worker who reckons that the jury is out on pot and there are a lot of positive benefits for some conditions. And yes he smokes occassionaly. And drinks. And sometimes uses sample drus sent to him.....

I truly wonder just how many contributors to this thread have actually done what I have done and spent a lot of time researching drugs from an unbiased view. I've spent probably the major part of my life around and on medication of many kinds. I've nearly died 5 or 6 times, I've spent months in hospital and having just about every kind of medical test and examination known to the Profession. I've battled severe drug addiction to prescription painkillers and I've lost a few body parts along the way.

I don't believe in ignorance about important topics and do my study in depth. My current surgeon and anaethetist were very complimentary that I could converse with them in their language and had a good grasp of the issues I faced.

Sadly, that means nothing at all to those who don't know me, but that's life on the Internet. I only have the genuine interests of you all at heart and am not trying to beat up on anyone. I know first hand the issues we face.

[mashman]

Now you do realise that in this discussion, personal experience first hand from the opposite point of view is automatically invalid...

Even qualified medical specialists in drug effects really have no idea what they are talking about, neither do any emergency or hospital staff, Drs. and psych experts who deal with it on a daily basis, really know anything much at all as they önly see the "bad side.."

As for law enforcement officers and court staff, lawyers and judges, hell, what do they know about anything?

Damn that's funny... did you read any of the posts earlier in the thread where the druggies admitted that there were risks? and some of us had lost friends that may well have been alive had they not "smoked"? So who's ignoring what again?

The rub is, is that the medical experts etc... have said that there is a risk... a risk is not the guarantee that you are "preaching". So why is it that people who don't take marijuana contract exactly the same illnesses?

Meanwhile, the same people that don't allow marijuana, allow substances with far greater health risks associated with them to be available to the general public. But that's fine, because it's been given a legal seal of approval?

I've battled severe drug addiction to prescription painkillers

Nuff said! the hypocrisy of the anti-marijuana fraternity knows no bounds.

[Winston001]

. Who said she was moaning?

Quite right, my bad. Apologies.

[imdying]

Nuff said! the hypocrisy of the anti-marijuana fraternity knows no bounds.

Be fair, that could happen to anybody. Ask OAB if painkillers gave him any trouble. I don't know for sure, but given that he had his nerves ripped out of his spinal column, and yet still won't take them anymore, I'm guessing they weren't a fun time for him. Drugs, recreational (weed), medincal (painkillers), or social (alcohol), all have the potential for abuse. Should we legislate for the lowest common denomiator, hell no.

[mashman]

Be fair, that could happen to anybody. Ask OAB if painkillers gave him any trouble. I don't know for sure, but given that he had his nerves ripped out of his spinal column, and yet still won't take them anymore, I'm guessing they weren't a fun time for him. Drugs, recreational (weed), medincal (painkillers), or social (alcohol), all have the potential for abuse. Should we legislate for the lowest common denomiator, hell no.

I agree and wasn't having a pop at Ed, just the legal pills that are probably more addictive than marijuana and the hypocrisy of the anti-marijuana lobby in defending them based on a legal status.