Don Brash: "We should decriminalise marijuana"

[rainman]

Honestly I can't see what people moan about.

Debt is the traditional gripe, I believe.

Also reduced sovereign control of our own economy, excessive dependence on overseas interests, lower levels of self-sufficiency and greater risk exposure to adverse global conditions (either economic, or particularly for us so far away from everything, physical resources like oil).

And of course greater wealth and income inequality, with associated on-going social problems, low wage growth, the need for high levels of welfare/WfF, needlessly high and unstable unemployment...

When people say "capitalism is broken", they usually mean the Reagan/Thatcher/Friedman/Douglas kind. Because it is evil. Fortress NZ may have been or may not have been bad for NZ but Douglas' reforms were extreme and poorly considered.

[Zedder]

Debt is the traditional gripe, I believe.

Also reduced sovereign control of our own economy, excessive dependence on overseas interests, lower levels of self-sufficiency and greater risk exposure to adverse global conditions (either economic, or particularly for us so far away from everything, physical resources like oil).

And of course greater wealth and income inequality, with associated on-going social problems, low wage growth, the need for high levels of welfare/WfF, needlessly high and unstable unemployment...

When people say "capitalism is broken", they usually mean the Reagan/Thatcher/Friedman/Douglas kind. Because it is evil. Fortress NZ may have been or may not have been bad for NZ but Douglas' reforms were extreme and poorly considered.

Yep, I certainly don't disagree with that.

[puddytat]

Well, I do believe Drugs have done some good for us, I really do. And if you dont think Drugs have done some good for us, then take all your albums,all your tapes & all your Cds' & burn them!!
Because all those musicians who have enhanced your lives over the years.....

They were reeeeaaal fuckin' high on drugs.

[Winston001]

I agree with much of what you say but I don't know that the average talk-back radio caller or indeed KB poster cares about all of them.

Debt is the traditional gripe, I believe.

Agreed, as it always has been. Debtors prisons only 150 years ago.

Also reduced sovereign control of our own economy,

Really? Even Zimbabwe (the former breadbasket of Africa) remains sovereign. If you mean the change to employment law associated with The Hobbit, it seems a minor change to clarify our law.

excessive dependence on overseas interests, lower levels of self-sufficiency and greater risk exposure to adverse global conditions (either economic, or particularly for us so far away from everything, physical resources like oil).

Agreed and the irony is that Bill Birch's much maligned Think Big projects (early 80s) were aimed exactly at NZ gaining self-sufficiency.

And of course greater wealth and income inequality, with associated on-going social problems, low wage growth, the need for high levels of welfare/WfF, needlessly high and unstable unemployment...

When people say "capitalism is broken", they usually mean the Reagan/Thatcher/Friedman/Douglas kind. Because it is evil. Fortress NZ may have been or may not have been bad for NZ but Douglas' reforms were extreme and poorly considered.

Again agreed on wealth inequality but I'm darned if I can see even in hindsight what successive governments could have done differently. NZs economy suffered two king hits: Britain joining the Common Market in 1973 and the First Oil Shock also in 1973.

From then on we became a small forgotten country in the South Pacific with a first world standard of living but a second world income. Australia and South Africa faced the same problems but they had the advantages of huge land areas and....minerals.

FWIW capitalism is not broken. Its been the main economic model for most nations over the past 400 years. The modern treatment is to constrain capitalism through social democracy. Its not perfect but better than all the rest.

[oldrider]

Douglas' reforms were extreme and poorly considered.

Yes but they did give us just enough of a glimpse to see that handled properly they could have done a lot more for this country than anything else before or since!

Douglas was not the real driver anyway, he was just doing as he was told by Treasury!

They and other government departments were the real drivers/advisers. (whatever)

Douglas never really has a history of seeing things out until completed, when the going gets tuff ... he gets going!

[mashman]

Roger Douglas was on Q+A this morning saying that he wished he and his government had paid more attention to social policies... I guess it was the start of a brave new world and they likely didn't realise that they were setting things in motion that would ripple on through NZ for decades to come, as they were saying that a lot of those policies are still around. Pretty hard to predict the future I guess.

[rainman]

I'm darned if I can see even in hindsight what successive governments could have done differently. NZs economy suffered two king hits: Britain joining the Common Market in 1973 and the First Oil Shock also in 1973.

From then on we became a small forgotten country in the South Pacific with a first world standard of living but a second world income.

Spot on. And our denial of this has just got us deeper and deeper in the shit ever since. As a second world economy we should not be pretending to play with the big boys, particularly at the poker table where the chips are our few remaining assets.

And guess what's coming up again sometime soon? The next oil shock. That's a king hit that will make 1973 look like a kiddies party.

FWIW capitalism is not broken. Its been the main economic model for most nations over the past 400 years. The modern treatment is to constrain capitalism through social democracy. Its not perfect but better than all the rest.

On the days where I'm not feeling particularly Buddhist libertarian socialist I tend to agree with that. Apart from fact that I think the modern treatment is to cross classical capitalism with something more akin to feudalism or plain ole fascism.

Yes but they did give us just enough of a glimpse to see that handled properly they could have done a lot more for this country than anything else before or since!

Yeah, but the trick is doing a lot more that will make the place better. That's we he went wrong.


Anyhoo, back to the drugs issue, before I drag this thread hopelessly off topic. I suspect Brash is right. This dude would agree with him, I'm sure, even if for somewhat more serious reasons than wasting a bit of dosh.

I'm so pleased Brash became Act leader, and comments like this one are mainly why. Watching them implode will be such fun. Of course the housewives of Epsom will probably hold their noses and vote Banks in anyway, despite my faint hopes for the exhibition of principle by the NZ electorate.

[Zedder]

Roger Douglas was on Q+A this morning saying that he wished he and his government had paid more attention to social policies... I guess it was the start of a brave new world and they likely didn't realise that they were setting things in motion that would ripple on through NZ for decades to come, as they were saying that a lot of those policies are still around. Pretty hard to predict the future I guess.

Yes it's hard to predict the future Mashman but in this case it's about cause and effect.

Douglas and his little group of cohorts from Treasury and the Reserve Bank were supposedly intelligent and highly educated people. In their highly paid jobs they were meant to understand the implications of their actions globally and long term. They weren't running a one off sausage sizzle, they were running a country.

Just to keep it on the marijuana topic, maybe Douglas was on the weed when he wrote his book "There's got to be a better way" in 1980.

[avgas]

And guess what's coming up again sometime soon? The next oil shock. That's a king hit that will make 1973 look like a kiddies party.

From a supplier point of view, its not going to happen on OPEC's books. They learn't a very valuable lesson then - and don't intend on repeating it. They get more money in the long run by slowly increasing the rate (an bleeding us dry). The effect of substitution is too strong now also. If the rate of petrol suddenly spiked we would almost immediately find a cheaper substitute. But so long as they don't do that we are dumb to what are actually doing.

However from a customer or even a govt perspective. All bets are off. US invading the middle east is evidence of that. Likewise demand for small cars is amazing. I recall seeing GM's roadmap for 2011. They were to release 1 new small car a month, and were killing off all except a handfull of the large cars. No money in them anymore.
Even the new US cop cars are going to be V6's as the last Crown Victoria rolled off the line last week.

OPEC are scared now, keeping the price cheap enough for everyone to buy. http://www.opec.org/opec_web/en/2071.htm

[scissorhands]

meh,

Is altering your mental cognition using introduced chemicals actually a good thing?

usually no unless you want to win in sport, in debate, a bigger erection, your unwell, umm all sorts really.......

Sure, totally straight is best, I have lived like a monk for over 10 years of my adult life, not even coffee. This is an ideal state for sure

But, I was still lazy and pretty much the same aspergian idiot that I usually am....


Why not get the downtrodden people off liver/kidney/ etc harmful substances that we now know costs the tax payer in medical costs to the state, and move all the freaks, retards and bitter niggers and alcoholics over onto a safe, non toxic substance that wont put them in hospital needing an operation for their oral addictions.

Is altering your mental cognition using introduced chemicals actually a good thing?

no but neither is riding a bike when you could drive a car or take a bus

Many cannabis users go on to good wholesome lives, many around here in Grey Lynn go on to become natural healers, work in TV and film, go to Unitec and become a designer.... etc etc

I know heaps who have used pot for inspiration in their lives, and moved on... so its not all bad. So many people I come across have a bit tucked away that they hardly use, till I show up that is

Take pot away because of a few unlucky souls with bad starts to life, and addicts will just start drinking or get on the P.

They need something, give them something 100% non toxic and safe that saves the state money in the long run.

Cannabis is also an anti cancer substance, and added to a 'bad life' often protects the abuser from organ related harm related to comorbid addictions such as junk food, and addictions to harmful substances like grog, tobacco, coffee etc etc

My pharmacist nana used to administer cannabis to the sick. For hundreds of years cannabis was the #1 medicine in the world....

I dont think it helps with stupidity or low intelligence, those people will have to stay that way I'm afraid, and may be better not to go near cannabis.

Also peeps with tumultuous lives full of conflict and drama, cannabis may exacerbate their poor spiritual state. However, it may also assist with some 'bad lives' by offering a different perspective.....or placing them to the side of society rather than being a cat amongst the pigeons

[mashman]

They weren't running a one off sausage sizzle, they were running a country.

They'd likely fuck that up too

[puddytat]

However, it may also assist with some 'bad lives' by offering a different perspective.....or placing them to the side of society rather than being a cat amongst the pigeons

I can vouch for that

[rainman]

The effect of substitution is too strong now also. If the rate of petrol suddenly spiked we would almost immediately find a cheaper substitute.

Like what?

[scissorhands]

[mashman]

ha ha haaaaaaa... bloody awful that they got let off... but damn that was funny.