Are cagers too far disconnected?

[Scuba_Steve]

I (most probably like most of you) enjoy driving/riding I don't do it just to get places, I do it becuase I love it.
But it's got me thinking are modern cages too far disconnected from the road???
Sparked by this in the Dom post

"Giannoutsos had only recently bought the car and was having trouble with it, including being unable to work out the speed he was going because the lights on the dashboard were not working"

My 1st thought was "fucking moron even without a speedo it's not hard to tell ya doing over 100", but then I realized, while still a fucking moron, he might not have realized the speed.
Most modern cages (Euros being the 1st) take the road experience away from the user, suspension takes any feeling away, pedals are no longer connected to that which they control, fully sealed, sound deaded & even slightly pressurized cabs remove all perception of speed/moverment, hell even the steering is no longer connected to the wheels.

A modern cage driver is fully seperated from the road they are driving on all in the name of "comfort". I myself cannot stand these modern monstrosities I like to feel connected, I like to be in control, I like to drive!!! I'll continue to stick to 80's & early 90's cages becuase of this, but I do think this "comfort" is starting to have a real detrimental effect on safety.

Maybee thats part the reason why beemers & mercs are such bad drivers??? These 2 manufacturers do lead the way when it comes to "comfort" features, and if your've ever driven a modern one you know how far disconected you are from the road, its sorta like driving a car on the PS2.

[Indiana_Jones]

I agree somewhat to this. When I drive my sisters Polo the speed can creep up on you slowly without you noticing.

While in the Wolseley you know what speed you're doing pretty much all the time without looking at the speedo.

Also the Polo is an Auto, and the crab a manaul. Granted auto is nice sometimes, but I prefer manual.

But doing 127km/h in a 50km/h zone? yea I don't think so Tim..... lol

-Indy

[imdying]

No. The average Kiwi could crash a gokart with no seat padding. The average dark skinned immigrant should've been shot even for asking for a license.

[martybabe]

I won a 2010 auto car, it has ABS, traction control stuff, air conditioning, usb hi-fi,ipod connectivity etc etc.

So yes, basically all I have to do is point it and press the go and slow pedals, oh and keep an eye on the speedo, wouldn't want to be an evil criminal type. It is in reality, idle and cosseting transport with very little input from the outside world. It is so easy and so removed from 'the art of driving' it could be argued that it is a potentially a dangerous vehicle to drive, isolating the driver as it does from the process of 'driving'.

Contrast that with the bike: I have to choose what to wear for safety and comfort before I even start the engine, I have to take into account the weather, the road conditions, the suspension settings, tyre pressures. I get too hot too wet and too cold all within an hours ride. I have to use a clutch, change gear and brake correctly balancing front and back. I have no airbags, no traction control no windscreen wipers, no abs , no inherent stability. I have to take into account the behaviour of every other cosseted driver on the road and effectively drive for them as they are usually unaware or don't care about the threat they pose to my very existence.

All these many considerations and actions just to pop to the shops vs Mr sleepy, isolated, distracted, jandle wearing, smoking, eating, make up doing, average ability, taught by my Mom on the farm driver, in their warm dry almost drive itself modern car.

Perhaps Mythically rather than factually, Volvo drivers are considered to be the biggest danger to motorcyclists in the UK and Volvos have long since been atop most of the spec sheets for comfort, safety and all the gizmos that isolate the driver most from the chore of driving, go figure.

[Mental Trousers]

You're just catching onto this now?? Don't you spend a lot of time travelling on the road in a number of different cars?? I thought you would've noticed how divorced from driving people are in modern vehicles.

These days cars are more comfortable, suspension and chassis are far more capable, electronic aids compensate for more and more. Your average driver is able to make many more mistakes and the vehicles will compensate to keep them safe without them knowing just how close they came to an accident. Because modern cars do such a good job of looking after the drivers and passengers they don't even realize when they've made a mistake. So if they don't know they've made a mistake they'll keep making them over and over.

[bogan]

I think so, I certainly notice more obstructions to being connected when I drive. Are BMW and merc driver really worse off? When I drive my old man's BMW I pay more attention, cos that shit is expensive

My flatmate said something rather indicative of some cagers last night; "If we could go 130 I would be safer because I would pay more attention to the road" Why not just pay attention anyway, it's not like there is anything more important to do when you are driving!

[bluninja]

My SAAB could be set to beep if I exceeded a certain speed so who needs to loook at the speedo?

As for is a cage driver too cossetted? Latest bikes now have traction control, and there's helmets with blue tooth speakers for your phone/gps/ipod, warmed seats, warmed grips, heated jackets.

I think people will choose their own level of enviromental input versus comfort. If only we could make idiot drivers and riders choose to be more comfortable sitting back relaxing whilst someone else drives for them

[george formby]

Yup, I find modern cars eerie to drive, magic carpet ride & widescreen TV. I usually end up winding my window down to achieve a sense of motion & connection.

I like the way Toyota have defended their system which enables a driver to text whilst on the move, putting full emphasis on the drivers discretion.

[avgas]

Errrr no offense. But I think both of you need to think long and hard about how you might have a different (if not out dated) perspective to this.

I recall my first 'stealing' my dad's NEW 98 Triumph 955i. Now I was used to old bikes that rattled, or small bikes that were gutless.

Within a short matter of time, I shat myself while noticing the speedo.
I was doing 200kph and I did not notice.

Now I know I was going faster that I should have.....but 200kph+ it blew my young mind.

Likewise once I was going full speed in my Vauxhall rust wagon, the might 79 Chevanne. And I opened the window.
A catagory 5 storm would have felt more gentle. I swear the car buffeted the 100kph wind to 500kph. Bits of paper that were in the back seat were now airborne and attacking me in 'fly-bys'.

Yet wind down the windows in the new 335i and you have no idea how strong the wind is until you stick you head out of the car.

but I will let you guys go now. I know you have to crank the handle on the old girl and start driving home before your electrics fail.

[Scuba_Steve]

No. The average Kiwi could crash a gokart with no seat padding.

Yes but now take him out & let him drive it with radio controller, do you think he'll get better or worse???

You're just catching onto this now?? Don't you spend a lot of time travelling on the road in a number of different cars?? I thought you would've noticed how divorced from driving people are in modern vehicles.

I caught on along time ago, just decided to put it into text now

I think so, I certainly notice more obstructions to being connected when I drive. Are BMW and merc driver really worse off? When I drive my old man's BMW I pay more attention, cos that shit is expensive

My flatmate said something rather indicative of some cagers last night; "If we could go 130 I would be safer because I would pay more attention to the road" Why not just pay attention anyway, it's not like there is anything more important to do when you are driving!

BMW & Merc I would say are worse off, they are at the forefront of dangerous comfort. Last I drove was a 2009 I think? and with thick walls, no feeling/feedback in pedals, steering, suspension etc & absolutly silent inside (& of-course fucking auto!) I had nothing I was just pointing it & saying go or stop I was totally disconnected & it gets hard to stay focused when your not part of the action as such

Which is proably what your faltmate atually means, when you cruise along you start to "wonder" ohh look at the beach, look at the sunset, look at the guy with his head up a cow etc & that is dangerous, whereas when your travelling a decent speed (part of the action) your focused on that nothing else.

[imdying]

Yes but now take him out & let him drive it with radio controller, do you think he'll get better or worse???

Self drive, RC, or Harry Potter mind control shit... without proper training the average Kiwi will still stack it.

[Big Dave]

't aint the arrow - it's the Indian.

[2Seat_Terror]

...yes. Even in a simple little Starlet, IMHO.

[bogan]

Which is proably what your faltmate atually means, when you cruise along you start to "wonder" ohh look at the beach, look at the sunset, look at the guy with his head up a cow etc & that is dangerous, whereas when your travelling a decent speed (part of the action) your focused on that nothing else.

Yeh but you only start to wonder about other shit provided you are still paying enough attention to be safe right? Just because you only need, say 60% attention on a straight road doesn't mean you just round that shit down to 10%

[george formby]

Errrr no offense. But I think both of you need to think long and hard about how you might have a different (if not out dated) perspective to this.

I recall my first 'stealing' my dad's NEW 98 Triumph 955i. Now I was used to old bikes that rattled, or small bikes that were gutless.

Within a short matter of time, I shat myself while noticing the speedo.
I was doing 200kph and I did not notice.

Now I know I was going faster that I should have.....but 200kph+ it blew my young mind.

Likewise once I was going full speed in my Vauxhall rust wagon, the might 79 Chevanne. And I opened the window.
A catagory 5 storm would have felt more gentle. I swear the car buffeted the 100kph wind to 500kph. Bits of paper that were in the back seat were now airborne and attacking me in 'fly-bys'.

Yet wind down the windows in the new 335i and you have no idea how strong the wind is until you stick you head out of the car.

but I will let you guys go now. I know you have to crank the handle on the old girl and start driving home before your electrics fail.

Been their a couple of times, but, I was still looking where I was going.

Thing is, when my electrics do fail I can fix them without taking out a mortgage to turn the ABS light off.

I'm only slightly jealous of modern car owners, but for performance not cosseting. I still regard staying dry as a luxury.