Pro-Twin & Prolite Nats (How many!)

[Robert Taylor]

I think it depends more on throwing new tyres at these things and having a good setup. I have a carby SV that isn't worth much more than $5k and it can do 13s round Manfield and capable of winning National races.

But yea, I think the rules are too open for the class as it is. I would prefer all the classes to more restricted to save costs but then again the racers don't make the rules.

Nonsense, racers have had a lot of input and many of those in position of responsibility are ex racers that have been around for a very long time.

I think that in the most expensive class ( Superbike ) there are likely going to be 15 bikes on the grid.

[crazy man]

That of course is complete and utter bollocks as an argument . This has been well discussed over time and there are solid reasons the rules have been sensibly formulated by a number of people who have thought long and hard and have been around for a long time in this sport.

For one race cans are cheaper to replace or repair when the bikes are crashed, and that would happen rather a lot more if the suspension was only allowed to be completely stock, irrespective that very light and very heavy riders would be especially penalised by the spring rates being far less than ideal for them.

The predominant bike of choice for this class has been the SV650 and the COLD HARD REALITY is they are a commuter bike with very lazy geometry and a stock rear shock absorber that is very ''wooden'' in action. One of the biggest single things with the SV is they need a lot more weight over the front and sharper steering and that is in part achieved by a longer and length adjustable aftermarket shock. Just so these bloody things will steer. And then once you get the weight over the front you have got to stop it blowing through its stroke, which it does so almost uncontrollably because there is next to no low speed compression damping control. So bad even a lot of road riders wont put up with this issue.

Stock they will overstress tyres and crash a lot.

Also aftermarket suspension once purchased has very good residual value to be later onsold. Ask people about this and how they can often be respec'd or traded by those geared up to do so....

Id rather people aspire than espouse that everyone should be at a lower level. With such an attitude we may as well be racing underbone chassis type bikes as they do in third world countries. And to the best of my knowledge NZ voted for the politics of aspiration last Saturday, that doesnt penalise those who are prepared to get ahead.

And who would police the ''stock'' bikes? I suggest you go to a kart meeting and witness all the politics and aggravation that goes on with their ultra controlled classes.

A... tim gibbs meeting l never saw one crash B... they were stock and on controlled tires. best time at mainfeild in the winter 16.5 times l see at mainfeild 11 years laster 1.15 . back then the class was taking of now lucky to get 6 out there now. l never saw tires wereing out on the low powered bikes

[Robert Taylor]

A... tim gibbs meeting l never saw one crash B... they were stock and on controlled tires. best time at mainfeild in the winter 16.5 times l see at mainfeild 11 years laster 1.15 . back then the class was taking of now lucky to get 6 out there now. l never saw tires wereing out on the low powered bikes

You need to research the times more thoroughly. Wooden tires will not wear out as fast and in the more serious environment of summer racing there would be lots of crashing. This is a spurios defence of your argument

[scracha]

Nonsense, racers have had a lot of input and many of those in position of responsibility are ex racers that have been around for a very long time.

I think that in the most expensive class ( Superbike ) there are likely going to be 15 bikes on the grid.

Think he was maybe referring to engine mods....you know...when supposed Pro Twins spec SV's bikes clealry have quite a bit more squirt than F3 spec SV's.

[crazy man]

You need to research the times more thoroughly. Wooden tires will not wear out as fast and in the more serious environment of summer racing there would be lots of crashing. This is a spurios defence of your argument

you have to be nice to me its my birthday tomorrow

[Shorty_925]

The predominant bike of choice for this class has been the SV650 and the COLD HARD REALITY is they are a commuter bike with very lazy geometry and a stock rear shock absorber that is very ''wooden'' in action. One of the biggest single things with the SV is they need a lot more weight over the front and sharper steering and that is in part achieved by a longer and length adjustable aftermarket shock. Just so these bloody things will steer. And then once you get the weight over the front you have got to stop it blowing through its stroke, which it does so almost uncontrollably because there is next to no low speed compression damping control. So bad even a lot of road riders wont put up with this issue.

Stock they will overstress tyres and crash a lot.

Can you explain further what you mean about "wooden" in action?

Agree with the overstress the tyres, on a standard SV it took me 10-11 laps (at the 1 hour held at Taupo a few weeks back) before the tyres started sliding too much and had to back the pace down.

Which is the best value up front first off, springs or emulators?

[Robert Taylor]

you have to be nice to me its my birthday tomorrow

It was mine on Sunday but I still had to work my butt off!

[Robert Taylor]

Can you explain further what you mean about "wooden" in action?

Agree with the overstress the tyres, on a standard SV it took me 10-11 laps (at the 1 hour held at Taupo a few weeks back) before the tyres started sliding too much and had to back the pace down.

Which is the best value up front first off, springs or emulators?

Dead, non responsive.

With that wobbly jelly front end its about half in half. Certainly the springs need to be correct for the rider but they lack so much low speed damping ( there basically is none ) Race Tech emulators are also required. But we just dont take them out of the packet and chuck in, we modify those as well.

[Robert Taylor]

Think he was maybe referring to engine mods....you know...when supposed Pro Twins spec SV's bikes clealry have quite a bit more squirt than F3 spec SV's.

I think that also depends in part because there are ( inarguably ) a lot of slow F3 bikes out there and the very fastest ProTwins ( Johnie Small, Geoff Booth ) are on topiof their game in keeping their motors up to speed within the rules. Its also about setup, how early the rider rolls on the throttle and how late he brakes. Of course you will have higher trap speeds if you open the throttle off the turns earlier and hold it on longer......

[Shorty_925]

Dead, non responsive.

With that wobbly jelly front end its about half in half. Certainly the springs need to be correct for the rider but they lack so much low speed damping ( there basically is none ) Race Tech emulators are also required. But we just dont take them out of the packet and chuck in, we modify those as well.

It is responsive, just not in a way a shock should work! more the way a pogo stick works!

Thanks for the advice with the front-end.

[discodan]

Nonsense, racers have had a lot of input and many of those in position of responsibility are ex racers that have been around for a very long time.

I think that in the most expensive class ( Superbike ) there are likely going to be 15 bikes on the grid.

Nonsense, I have emailed the commission and MNZ and never received a reply. I was at a riders forum where a room full of racers and supporters who pay the bills that keep you in business were voicing ideas about the future of Road Racing - I don't know of any of those suggestions that have been taken on board for next years nationals.

And as for the costs of the Pro-Twin class, you can do it on the cheap, which I have done but if you want to win you have to spend twice as much to be competitive with the top bikes. I spent thousands on suspension only to have tyres sometimes get shredded in a single session. In fact, after buying an Ohlins shock, you later told me that the only way I could go faster and catch the guys in front of me is if I bought a newer TTX shock - how is this encouraging riders into the class!

I started racing an SV with bog stock suspension and I didn't crash, my tyres lasted longer but I was a bit slower... so what?!

Rant over.

PS Happy birthday Scott, Robert

[lostinflyz]

Nonsense, I have emailed the commission and MNZ and never received a reply. I was at a riders forum where a room full of racers and supporters who pay the bills that keep you in business were voicing ideas about the future of Road Racing - I don't know of any of those suggestions that have been taken on board for next years nationals.

And as for the costs of the Pro-Twin class, you can do it on the cheap, which I have done but if you want to win you have to spend twice as much to be competitive with the top bikes. I spent thousands on suspension only to have tyres sometimes get shredded in a single session. In fact, after buying an Ohlins shock, you later told me that the only way I could go faster and catch the guys in front of me is if I bought a newer TTX shock - how is this encouraging riders into the class!

I started racing an SV with bog stock suspension and I didn't crash, my tyres lasted longer but I was a bit slower... so what?!

Rant over.

PS Happy birthday Scott, Robert

the question is are you just going round in circles, or are you racing.....

the most expensive part of racing is travel and consumables, by far......the shiny stuff costs alot less than that stuff in the long run.

as for racers input, its almost entirely run by racers but everyones got a different view.

[jellywrestler]

This is a spurios defence of your argument

Isn't SPURIOUS a disease a woman gets in her stench trench?

[Robert Taylor]

Isn't SPURIOUS a disease a woman gets in her stench trench?

Maybe with the ones in your social circle!

[Robert Taylor]

Nonsense, I have emailed the commission and MNZ and never received a reply. I was at a riders forum where a room full of racers and supporters who pay the bills that keep you in business were voicing ideas about the future of Road Racing - I don't know of any of those suggestions that have been taken on board for next years nationals.

And as for the costs of the Pro-Twin class, you can do it on the cheap, which I have done but if you want to win you have to spend twice as much to be competitive with the top bikes. I spent thousands on suspension only to have tyres sometimes get shredded in a single session. In fact, after buying an Ohlins shock, you later told me that the only way I could go faster and catch the guys in front of me is if I bought a newer TTX shock - how is this encouraging riders into the class!

I started racing an SV with bog stock suspension and I didn't crash, my tyres lasted longer but I was a bit slower... so what?!

Rant over.

PS Happy birthday Scott, Robert

You have moved from this Pro Twins class that you decry as too expensive. Now that you are in Superstock 600 you are decrying the cost of that as well. If you move to Supersport 600 or Superbike will you also decry the cost of that and expect the rules to be bastardised to suit your budget?
What amazes me in this country is the third world attitudes in some circles, we are not the third world ,yet. Nationals racing is not or should not be club level racing. Also in terms of goodwill riders dont realise how lucky they have got it in this country. I suggest you go overseas to a few AMA meetings or similiar ( even Ozzie racing ) and evidence the ''cost of service'' etc.