Occupy Dunedin?

[mashman]

I give up.
You are either stupid as mud to think this would work, walking around with a rose tinted glassed view of human nature or just trolling, either way I'm done.

heh... odd that most of the people I have spoken with understand what I'm getting at. They are human beings and understand that it's nothing more than a state of mind. Same as living with money, it's a state of mind. Perhaps mine is more of a state than most , but I've learned to live with that. So thinking it wouldn't work based on the arguments you have put forwards doesn't convince me to give it up. If all you have is human nature won't allow it to happen and in the same breath say that human being will do anything, then you should clean the shit off your rose tinted specs and have a slightly different look at the world.

It turns out that if money isn't a consideration for people who have nothing to lose, then they will happily live there and do their bit... unfortunately the flip side is that those who have something to lose (money, assets, status, position etc...), well some of them, don't get the idea. Just a personal observation after chatting with different people from different backgrounds with different perspectives etc... of those who are well off, I've found that most of them have either already considered and accepted the idea, or can be "persuaded" very easily of the "concept", irrespective of wether they think it can be achieved or not, and would indeed live in that society for the benefits it offers. But hey, they must know jack shit too.

[JimO]

well the fuckwits occupying the Octagon are indeed enjoying the "benefits"

[Berries]

Who fancies a bit of drunken fun in the Octagon on New Years Eve?

I saved some fireworks.

[Virago]

Who fancies a bit of drunken fun in the Octagon on New Years Eve?

I saved some fireworks.

Fireworks and tents...?

[Winston001]

heh... odd that most of the people I have spoken with understand what I'm getting at.

Yes, why wouldn't it get done? If someone is prepared to do it already, why wouldn't they continue to do it, just because they aren't getting paid?, nooooooo... and as a form of trade-off, they'll be eradicating poverty, drastically dropping the crime rate and making NZ "safer",

Why are you ranking people? So that they can feel superior to someone else? see the afore mentioned snobby idiots snip.

Good on you Mash for challenging the status quo. We need to ask and wonder if society could be better - that is how humans progress.

The problem is that what you want and describe is a hive culture. Ants, bees etc. They act together for the greater good and have hierarchies - low class individuals (workers) through to high class (soldiers, queens etc).

Very few creatures on this planet adopt the hive mind. Most are pure individuals with various levels of cooperation. Tigers are solo. Lions get together. Crocodiles do not form teams.

And.....humans fall somewhere to the right of the sociability index - we like to be with each other. Still, we are individuals and the primary drive is to serve your own interests first. Then your spouse and children. Everyone else can look after themselves.

You need to research human evolutionary psychology and understand the difference between us and hive cultures. I may also suggest you need to open your mind and think about the arguments put forward by other people. Not just dismiss them; do searches and reflect on the essential nature of what it is to be human.

[Big Dave]

All the Idealism and Pragmatism have in common is the ism.

[mashman]

Good on you Mash for challenging the status quo. We need to ask and wonder if society could be better - that is how humans progress.

The problem is that what you want and describe is a hive culture. Ants, bees etc. They act together for the greater good and have hierarchies - low class individuals (workers) through to high class (soldiers, queens etc).

Very few creatures on this planet adopt the hive mind. Most are pure individuals with various levels of cooperation. Tigers are solo. Lions get together. Crocodiles do not form teams.

And.....humans fall somewhere to the right of the sociability index - we like to be with each other. Still, we are individuals and the primary drive is to serve your own interests first. Then your spouse and children. Everyone else can look after themselves.

You need to research human evolutionary psychology and understand the difference between us and hive cultures. I may also suggest you need to open your mind and think about the arguments put forward by other people. Not just dismiss them; do searches and reflect on the essential nature of what it is to be human.

I'd love to ask the whole of NZ . We can do better, I have no doubt (or at least not many) and see progress as being hampered by the pursuit of money and also constrained by the use of money... which leads me to believe that we can do better.

I'm sorry that it appears as though I'm describing a hive culture. I FULLY understand how individual we are, which is the main reason I don't believe that equality is attainable, I'm not looking at "my" solution in terms of true equality. By default I would expect hierarchies to form as the "like" minded/skilled cross each others paths during their work day, as "gurus" (leaders/innovators/managers/"workers") identify themselves through action and people attach themselves to their presence to learn etc... (hopefully passing on the knowledge without the worry of IP and law suits) We need all levels of capability to be able to function... but our current mechanism for creating these hierarchies is financial, which really isn't beneficial in my eyes. It brings out the worst in us.

As you name and describe those creatures I can name people that I have met and know that fit those animal traits. Off the top of my head... whilst Tigers are predominantly solo, they can be in each others company for prolonged periods of time given a certain set of circumstances, like a zoo or circus. Poor argument perhaps, but animals can change and do change their behaviour given a particular set of circumstances don't they? I have no doubt that if it was in their best interests they'd rip each other to pieces, and I believe that they do this where territory in dispute? but either way, where beneficial they will work together? I dare say the same can be said for Crocs, Lions etc... given a set of circumstances they will probably change their predominant behaviour to ensure their survival.

As for us, I don't see us as reacting too differently to animals, sheep mainly (snigger)... but our capacity for being able to adapt to change is under rated imho. Take a look at the abilities of kids these days, picking up technology easier than their parents in many cases and accept the differences in other children as nothing more than that. Where do adults go so wrong? As individuals we probably do look after ourselves before others, wife, kids, friends etc... but that doesn't mean that there aren't those who don't put others first. Again I guess that's situational, amongst other things. Thing is though, not everyone can look after themselves can they? I don't for one and I'm sure caregivers/charity workers, amongst others, realise that too... but I do accept that there are people that don't feel the same way as me. I used to be one .

Hopefully I've illustrated that I understand the fundamental difference between us and hive culturs above... individuality. I'll try a question. How can a person accept another persons point of view, consider it, not agree with it and post an alternative (their belief perhaps) without being told that they are being dismissive or closed minded? (I'm learning all the time, changing my perspectives all the time, to the point where I hardly recognise myself these days, especially the last 3/4 years). You mean go and read research that has been undertaken by reputable scientists, then "debunked" by rfeputable scientists, only to be replaced by a new "scientific" understanding, to be scientifically "debunked" etc... The internet is full of confusion from that perspective. I have no doubt that we share traits that can be packaged up and labelled, but how do you explain people exclaiming, that was out of character? For me human nature is our unpredictability, the ability to do something that will surprise even ourselves... given a set of circumstances, we can do pretty much anything, but until we try we'll never know. Please reference some texts and I'll have a read.

[Berries]

Fireworks and tents...?

Sorry. It said Lord of the Rings. They should be burnt as well.

[Oscar]

I give up.
You are either stupid as mud to think this would work, walking around with a rose tinted glassed view of human nature or just trolling, either way I'm done.

Your first conclusion is correct.
He really is that stupid.

[RDJ]

All the Idealism and Pragmatism have in common is the ism.

And from a pragmatic point of view - why when someone goes to uni and / or professional 'school' for up to an additional 10 years after high school, knowingly incurring a mountain of personal loan debt and forgoing the opportunity to earn $ along the way, to get a doctorate in civil engineering or a commercial airline pilot's licence or a medical qualification, why would anyone expect they have not earned the right to collect a 6-figure salary.

Same rationale applies for someone who starts a business and succeeds after many years of long hours and high (financial) risk.

And how does this in any way deprive others who have not chosen the path of physical and skull sweat, of anything?

[BoristheBiter]

I'd love to ask the whole of NZ . We can do better, I have no doubt (or at least not many) and see progress as being hampered by the pursuit of money and also constrained by the use of money... which leads me to believe that we can do better.

I'm sorry that it appears as though I'm describing a hive culture. I FULLY understand how individual we are, which is the main reason I don't believe that equality is attainable, I'm not looking at "my" solution in terms of true equality. By default I would expect hierarchies to form as the "like" minded/skilled cross each others paths during their work day, as "gurus" (leaders/innovators/managers/"workers") identify themselves through action and people attach themselves to their presence to learn etc... (hopefully passing on the knowledge without the worry of IP and law suits) We need all levels of capability to be able to function... but our current mechanism for creating these hierarchies is financial, which really isn't beneficial in my eyes. It brings out the worst in us.

As you name and describe those creatures I can name people that I have met and know that fit those animal traits. Off the top of my head... whilst Tigers are predominantly solo, they can be in each others company for prolonged periods of time given a certain set of circumstances, like a zoo or circus. Poor argument perhaps, but animals can change and do change their behaviour given a particular set of circumstances don't they? I have no doubt that if it was in their best interests they'd rip each other to pieces, and I believe that they do this where territory in dispute? but either way, where beneficial they will work together? I dare say the same can be said for Crocs, Lions etc... given a set of circumstances they will probably change their predominant behaviour to ensure their survival.

As for us, I don't see us as reacting too differently to animals, sheep mainly (snigger)... but our capacity for being able to adapt to change is under rated imho. Take a look at the abilities of kids these days, picking up technology easier than their parents in many cases and accept the differences in other children as nothing more than that. Where do adults go so wrong? As individuals we probably do look after ourselves before others, wife, kids, friends etc... but that doesn't mean that there aren't those who don't put others first. Again I guess that's situational, amongst other things. Thing is though, not everyone can look after themselves can they? I don't for one and I'm sure caregivers/charity workers, amongst others, realise that too... but I do accept that there are people that don't feel the same way as me. I used to be one .

Hopefully I've illustrated that I understand the fundamental difference between us and hive culturs above... individuality. I'll try a question. How can a person accept another persons point of view, consider it, not agree with it and post an alternative (their belief perhaps) without being told that they are being dismissive or closed minded? (I'm learning all the time, changing my perspectives all the time, to the point where I hardly recognise myself these days, especially the last 3/4 years). You mean go and read research that has been undertaken by reputable scientists, then "debunked" by rfeputable scientists, only to be replaced by a new "scientific" understanding, to be scientifically "debunked" etc... The internet is full of confusion from that perspective. I have no doubt that we share traits that can be packaged up and labelled, but how do you explain people exclaiming, that was out of character? For me human nature is our unpredictability, the ability to do something that will surprise even ourselves... given a set of circumstances, we can do pretty much anything, but until we try we'll never know. Please reference some texts and I'll have a read.

so basically the status quo but with no money

[RDJ]

so basically the status quo but with no money

Yes, and with worse prospects, more defeatism, less optimism, and no reserves if natural or man-made disasters (continue to) happen.

What could possibly go wrong!

[mashman]

so basically the status quo but with no money

Perhaps I'm being too positive for ya . To a large degree yes, absolutely... but what does not having money "buy" you that having money doesn't? with free education (10 years, no debt and you still get to be a doctor), free healthcare, free housing (perhaps we'll build/rebuild smarter i.e. Domes, communal solar panels (they do this in Germany currently ), communal wind turbines), free research and development, free labor, free local resources etc... so no poverty, no budget constraint (build it once, build it right), free earthquake proofing, a drastic cut in bureaucracy (no need to "manage" costs) and potentially equity where inequality can exist without envy... amongst other benefits.

[mashman]

Yes, and with worse prospects, more defeatism, less optimism, and no reserves if natural or man-made disasters (continue to) happen.

What could possibly go wrong!

I'd say more prospects (after all you can still take your skills overseas if you want to live within the constraints of money, or travel etc...), why more defeatism?, more optimism (the world is your oyster, train in NZ for free, practice in NZ for free, go overseas if you wish, all but avoid the worlds financial bubbles, the sky will be the limit not the amount of money you have to spend etc...), more reserves than we have ever known so that disasters can be reacted to without having to wait on insurance companies selling assets to raise capital to pay off the their claimants and potentially with enough trained part-timers available, that you can keep the essential services ticking over whilst a fair sized portion of your workforce help out dealing with the disaster.

Not much if you're not subject to money needing to be in place before anything gets done. All of the local resources are available, much of the wait and logistics of disaster recovery are money related.

[RDJ]

Perhaps I'm being too positive for ya . To a large degree yes, absolutely... but what does not having money "buy" you that having money doesn't? with free education (10 years, no debt and you still get to be a doctor), free healthcare, free housing (perhaps we'll build/rebuild smarter i.e. Domes, communal solar panels (they do this in Germany currently ), communal wind turbines), free research and development, free labor, free local resources etc... so no poverty, no budget constraint (build it once, build it right), free earthquake proofing, a drastic cut in bureaucracy (no need to "manage" costs) and potentially equity where inequality can exist without envy... amongst other benefits.

Again, and with respect, there is no such thing as "free education, free healthcare and free housing". Those things may be free to you, but someone has to pay for them. Some people have to sit around doing the "evil capitalist" tango earning money and paying taxes so the government takes money in, so said money can be re-distributed (after Govt employees take their very substantial 'share') to fund the receipt by other people of the so-called "free education, free healthcare and free housing". If you have time, look up the meaning and origins of the acronym TANSTAAFL.