Safer Journeys for Motorcycling

[James Deuce]

Jim,
Have never seen this quoted. Curious to what circles it's been quoted in and what the basis for their claim is. Ironic considering that the police themselves are required to receive advanced training. Extending their presumed line of argument, there's a limit beyond which more training causes more accidents!!! Really stretching a point, you might just about be able to see a (bloody) weak correlation between trackday-type training and higher speed road accidents but that's not advanced roadcraft training which doesn't focus on speed per se.

Any authority who makes utterances of that kind is being nearly as irresponsible as stupid drivers.

Last time I heard it was a National Radio interview with Paula Rose, Which would have put it mid-last year. The first time it was quoted to my face was 1991 by the head snake (MoT) of the time, whose name escapes me, during an earlier round of ACC protests and negotiations when the issue of addressing a truly horrible accident rate was raised.

It comes up repeatedly. If you want to get "the response", simply email Paula Rose and ask for her official opinion on advanced driver education.

[Blackbird]

Last time I heard it was a National Radio interview with Paula Rose, Which would have put it mid-last year. The first time it was quoted to my face was 1991 by the head snake (MoT) of the time, whose name escapes me, during an earlier round of ACC protests and negotiations when the issue of addressing a truly horrible accident rate was raised.

It comes up repeatedly. If you want to get "the response", simply email Paula Rose and ask for her official opinion on advanced driver education.

Thanks Jim,

I was so incensed by one of her previous utterances that I tried to find her email address and failed. I'd calmed down after a wee while so didn't pursue it but if you have her address, I'd be pleased to have it!

G

[MSTRS:Me]

Any authority who makes utterances of that kind is being nearly as irresponsible as stupid drivers.

They are. As witness the bs spouted about the results of the lowered speed tolerance the first few times it was trotted out.

[Scuba_Steve]

A new way needs to be found to actually force the political masters to take notice and actually change their minds.

Occupy parliament???

[Katman]

Far too many people think that Advanced Riding means little more than finding the perfect line around a corner or being able to stop in 2 metres from 60kph.

Trackday lines and road riding lines are not necessarily one in the same.

Advanced riding techniques are as much a mental issue as they are an operational one.

[Blackbird]

Far too many people think that Advanced Riding means little more than finding the perfect line around a corner or being able to stop in 2 metres from 60kph.

Trackday lines and road riding lines are not necessarily one in the same.

Advanced riding techniques are as much a mental issue as they are an operational one.

Absolutely about either advanced riding or driving! (and worryingly, a lot of motorcyclists). Have just started my IAM Observer training and the unfortunate side effect is that it's impossible to totally switch off watching others even when riding socially. I suppose it's no bad thing really, helps to keep you out of trouble

[James Deuce]

Thanks Jim,

I was so incensed by one of her previous utterances that I tried to find her email address and failed. I'd calmed down after a wee while so didn't pursue it but if you have her address, I'd be pleased to have it!

G

I'll see what I can find!

[riffer]

Let's face it guys, in the eyes of TPTB "Advanced Rider Training" equals Track Days.

Going back, James Deuce, on your observations that Ulysses and HOG need to be more proactive in engaging with TPTB, are you aware Jim Furneaux, Ulysses Wellington Branch President and Ulysses National Executive member, works at LTNZ? His role is "Principal Advisor, Driver Training & Testing Standards". He's the man that advises LTNZ on what sort of testing standards there should be for drivers' (and riders') licenses. Ulysses are involved heavily with LTNZ (and not just through Jim) on suggestions on rider training.

Are motorcyclists also aware that BRONZ have are in discussions with LTNZ and Ulysses jointly to work with training and competitions where motorcyclists can publicly display roadcraft? As opposed to the regular demonstrations of ability to twist throttle we hear so much about?

Byron Cummins and I are working hard on the BRONZ submission to Safer Journeys. Some of you may think that it's a fait accompli, but we're willing to engage with LTNZ on helping them with what we think are some excellent suggestions and advising them on what we think are some less than optimal ones.

Personally, I think we need to stay well away from knee-jerk reactions to individual problems. Locally I see that LTNZ has jumped on the Kapiti roads, by immediately closing passing lanes and announcing that they will be reducing speed limits on all Kapiti Highways to 80km/hr asap. They also wish to introduce WRBs from Paremata through to Otaki.

We need to think longer term on the motorcycling "problem". it's not going to be fixed overnight.

[James Deuce]

Let's face it guys, in the eyes of TPTB "Advanced Rider Training" equals Track Days.

Going back, James Deuce, on your observations that Ulysses and HOG need to be more proactive in engaging with TPTB, are you aware Jim Furneaux, Ulysses Wellington Branch President and Ulysses National Executive member, works at LTNZ? His role is "Principal Advisor, Driver Training & Testing Standards". He's the man that advises LTNZ on what sort of testing standards there should be for drivers' (and riders') licenses. Ulysses are involved heavily with LTNZ (and not just through Jim) on suggestions on rider training.

Yes. No visible outcome as yet. See what I am saying?

There has literally been no outcome from any of the initiatives "undertaken" post Bikoi. Except for the looming spectre of compulsory reflective vests. Oh, and spending lots of money we gifted to a paid committee via our ACC levies, again with no positive outcomes for motorcyclists and motorcycling.

If that is unpalatable to hear, then perhaps these diverse quangos and think tanks need to develop a common communications plan and start telling people what they are doing with their ill-gotten funding from a disastrously unfair increase in levies on the mistaken premise that ACC is run on an account basis and so can justify targeting a minority?

[MSTRS:Me]

Yes. No visible outcome as yet. See what I am saying?

There has literally been no outcome from any of the initiatives "undertaken" post Bikoi. Except for the looming spectre of compulsory reflective vests. Oh, and spending lots of money we gifted to a paid committee via our ACC levies, again with no positive outcomes for motorcyclists and motorcycling.

If that is unpalatable to hear, then perhaps these diverse quangos and think tanks need to develop a common communications plan and start telling people what they are doing with their ill-gotten funding from a disastrously unfair increase in levies on the mistaken premise that ACC is run on an account basis and so can justify targeting a minority?

A single voice, and open communication? Sacrilege. Heresy. Off to the stocks with you...

[Berries]

I was so incensed by one of her previous utterances that I tried to find her email address and failed. I'd calmed down after a wee while so didn't pursue it but if you have her address, I'd be pleased to have it!

firstname.lastname @ police.govt.nz should work. Unless her real name is Derek.

[Brian407]

Brian,
Totally agree with the sentiments. Can I ask you a question? What formal refresher training or upskilling have you voluntarily undertaken in (say) the last 5 years? The question isn't designed to embarrass or have any fishooks in it by the way.

Cheers,

Geoff

In November of last year (2011) as it happens. I have a very good friend whose son runs a motorcycle training school, i.e. approved to issue the Basic Skills Certificate, and one of his advanced course's is designed as a refresher. As a succesful F1, and now F3 racer, he knows a thing or two about skills so i took his advanced course, which taught me a couple of new tricks (even old dogs can learn new tricks) and found it to be excellent.

I absolutley believe that the way forward is too openly, and publically support any initiatve that improves the standard of training, that will eventually lead to lower stats and reduced costs, but it has to be mandated in legislation. Voluntary attendance is never going to work because only the responsible will attend, and thats not where the problem lies.

And as a friend of the recently retired Senior Sergeant for Road Safety Policing down this way, i have had many discussions regarding the merits, or lack thereof, of our current licencing systems, for both Cars and Bikes (and horse riding safety as it happens, but thats entirely another story). He has on many an occasion lamented the lack of formal training required to get a licence, with the only proof being the standard seen by the inspector on the day, and that can vary widely from one inspector to another. We are all capable of displaying our best behaviour for an hour or so while the test is undertaken.

And James, if making the licence more difficult to get improves the skill level and keeps a few off bikes that shouldnt be on them in the first place then thats a good thing, and I make no apology for supporting any moves in that direction.

And MSTRS, I dont actually have a problem with the headlight rule, on bikes or cars. In my view it has vastly increased visibilty to oncoming vehicles, especially silver cars on grey days, and I dont buy into the arguement that lights on in every vehicle will lead to driver familarity and negate the effect. In my travels I have found quite the opposite occurs. I do, however, draw the line at Hi Viz and white helmets, as i believe the 'road worker' argument holds water, and with todays modern fully faired bikes they wouldnt be visible from any real distance anyway.

To the rest of the naysayers, If you want to have any input, and a say in your future, try supporting some of the initiatives instead of protesting them all the time. Not all of this stuff is bad, but to gain any credibility at all we have to be seen to be willing to compromise.

[NONONO]

Where are the protests that you so decry?

[NONONO]

Yes. No visible outcome as yet. See what I am saying?

There has literally been no outcome from any of the initiatives "undertaken" post Bikoi. Except for the looming spectre of compulsory reflective vests. Oh, and spending lots of money we gifted to a paid committee via our ACC levies, again with no positive outcomes for motorcyclists and motorcycling.

If that is unpalatable to hear, then perhaps these diverse quangos and think tanks need to develop a common communications plan and start telling people what they are doing with their ill-gotten funding from a disastrously unfair increase in levies on the mistaken premise that ACC is run on an account basis and so can justify targeting a minority?

Yup

[Brian407]

Where are the protests that you so decry?

In the minds of almost every motorcyclist on the road. Dont tell me that you havent had discussions at rallies where you have openly decried some new rule, or cost, in motorcycling. That, my friend, is a protest, they dont always have to be public. The Bikeoi was a public protest, which has been pointed out by many, including the organisers, achieved little more than to clog the steps of Parliment.

Not saying that protest is bad thing, quite the opposite in fact, but sometimes, and in this case, credibility can only be gained through measured support for the outcomes trying to be achieved. Show that we have common ground and they will listen more.