Safer Journeys for Motorcycling

[caspernz]

motorcyclists dont think they are dangerous EINSTEIN

That simple line kinda sums up a good part of the problem. Lots of riders see the problem as not being theirs, partly right of course. My take on it is that we can make better progress as a group by improving our own skills and to go with it, our own on-road behaviour. Now I've followed the various debates on here, and as an observation....a big problem is that we as a group can't even agree on how to move forward.

My approach is simple...to improve the world, start with one self... Lots of driver training at work, and rider (refresher) training as recently as a couple of months ago.

Now I don't know Katman personally, but judging by the posts his way of thinking seems a lot like mine. The vast majority of accidents bikers are involved in are preventable, even the ones which are by and large blamed on another vehicle/driver. The irony is that having been exposed to the SMITH driver training system at work, for years, over and over and over....this defensive approach stays with me when on the bike or driving my own car. It makes me cringe observing other traffic at times.

Track based training improves bike control skills, which does apply on-road, but needs to be combined with the right attitude. I'm all for compulsory driver and rider training, tougher licensing regimes, refreshers for drivers licence at regular intervals....yeah right?

Getting a drivers licence is still just a bit of a laugh really, compared to most European countries anyhow. As long as it's seen as a right as opposed to a privilege which it should be, the general driver populations' abilities won't improve will they?

[Brian407]

Notice that Brian has yet to answer my last question, but that's up to him, it's only KB after all.

Oddly enough, I actually have a life other than this forum, but none the less, please accept my deepest apology for not responding to your question in a timely fashion. Cant help but wonder, though, if you've actually been reading my posts, as by now i would have thought it was pretty obvious what my goal is. Mandatory training and more stringent testing. Not just for us though, most road users need better training. I have all 6 classes of licence, and F,T,W and R as well, and 1 and 6 are the only ones that i didnt have to prove a high level of competence in to get. How many bike accidents involve trucks ? F All, why, because truck drivers are trained better and take fewer risks on the road.

Did you know that in Tokyo, one of the most populous cities in the world, driver training can only be done by driving schools that have met, and continue to meet, very stringent standards. None of this mum and dad stuff that we have here, and did you know that they have one of the lowest accident rates anywhere. Try driving there with your kiwi training? most of us dont hack the first half mile without attracting the attention of the police.

Just about everywhere, except possibly third world countries, have better drivers than us. Why? Because they have better training. In most places attendance at at least one, and in some cases two, practical training courses is mandatory before a licence is granted (remember driving/riding on public roads is a priviledge, not a right). Here we have the basic skills test, which only a complete moron could fail, and a scratchy board before we allow riders on the road. Then we have 6 months of essentially unsupervised riding in mainstream traffic before passing a 'ride round the block' test to allow more freedom for the next 18 months of unsupervised riding before the final test of 'skills' gained from absolutely no training at all. And we wonder why the public in general percieve us as being 'temporary kiwis'.

[98tls]

Oddly enough, I actually have a life other than this forum, but none the less, please accept my deepest apology for not responding to your question in a timely fashion. Cant help but wonder, though, if you've actually been reading my posts, as by now i would have thought it was pretty obvious what my goal is. Mandatory training and more stringent testing. Not just for us though, most road users need better training. I have all 6 classes of licence, and F,T,W and R as well, and 1 and 6 are the only ones that i didnt have to prove a high level of competence in to get. How many bike accidents involve trucks ? F All, why, because truck drivers are trained better and take fewer risks on the road.

Did you know that in Tokyo, one of the most populous cities in the world, driver training can only be done by driving schools that have met, and continue to meet, very stringent standards. None of this mum and dad stuff that we have here, and did you know that they have one of the lowest accident rates anywhere. Try driving there with your kiwi training? most of us dont hack the first half mile without attracting the attention of the police.

Just about everywhere, except possibly third world countries, have better drivers than us. Why? Because they have better training. In most places attendance at at least one, and in some cases two, practical training courses is mandatory before a licence is granted (remember driving/riding on public roads is a priviledge, not a right). Here we have the basic skills test, which only a complete moron could fail, and a scratchy board before we allow riders on the road. Then we have 6 months of essentially unsupervised riding in mainstream traffic before passing a 'ride round the block' test to allow more freedom for the next 18 months of unsupervised riding before the final test of 'skills' gained from absolutely no training at all. And we wonder why the public in general percieve us as being 'temporary kiwis'.

Fella spend some time riding over on the West coast then tell me again about overseas drivers.Many of em cant obey even the most basic,from what i understand the direction of an arrows pretty universal.

[Brian407]

Fella spend some time riding over on the West coast then tell me again about overseas drivers.Many of em cant obey even the most basic,from what i understand the direction of an arrows pretty universal.

Been there, done that. You need to identify your asians better than that. For the most part the Japanese are excellent drivers. They are courteous, patient, and very forgiving. Koreans and Chinese however are a completely different story. If you a want a really bad driver, try a Mexican taxi driver in Tijuana. They dont have a licence test of any sort, just pay a fee to the local drug lord and away they go.

[Flip]

Been there, done that. You need to identify your asians better than that. For the most part the Japanese are excellent drivers. They are courteous, patient, and very forgiving. Koreans and Chinese however are a completely different story. If you a want a really bad driver, try a Mexican taxi driver in Tijuana. They dont have a licence test of any sort, just pay a fee to the local drug lord and away they go.

Are you a pom? Are you sure the number after your name is not 747?

[Brian407]

Are you a pom? Are you sure the number after your name is not 747?

Nope, Southland born and bred. Travelled a lot in the 80's and mid 90's. Sometimes for conferences, sometimes for dealer incentive trips, sometime for pleasure. Something wrong with that?

[GrayWolf]

Not again!
I exist within the bounds expected by society as you put it.
I ride LEGALLY, that is, I have a license, the bike's warranted.
I go even further, I have full insurance and keep the bike well serviced. My license is clean.
As far as I'm concerned that's enough.
You keep putting this CUOOBY argument in the wrong context.
Yes, no one wants to see bikers down, however that's a matter of safety and personal choice. If your argument held water then surely the awful number of fatalities over the Xmas period would warrant the raising of ACC levies on cars?
Becoming shiny, bright paragons of virtue will not change the governments attitude to bikers and motorcycling in general, in any way. Neither will it alter the public's perspective, they simply do not give a toss, it does not concern them. They are not bikers.
If, by any chance they did become interested, or the govt decided to act equitably (if we CUOOBY'd) such a change would be generational. By that time motorcycling will have changed way beyond what we understand it to be.
Your argument simply mirrors the one put forward by Smith and Judge, that the levy hikes are justified because it's our own fault. Only the remedy differs.

Actualy you both have a valid point.
We do need a concerted 'effort' to apply pressure on the powers that be. BUT we also need to 'clean our act up'. As much as you may not wish to accept it. When a 'gang' is in the news, back patches etc? The instant public perception is they are 'US', motorcyclists. The sometimes stupid riding over roads like the rimutaka's.. does overtaking cars on bends and on yellow lines give a good public perception? ( I stand up and admit I do 'break the law' and exceed the speed limit at times) Although I jibe Hardly riders as do many others.. sadly many are my age group and they have loud pipes, dress in semi 'biker' gear.. often german style melmets, black face scarves covering to the eyes, etc, etc.. Not a 'good' public perception. As much as we have a right to wear what we like (for now) it does carry a public perception. I am not advocating that we all become captain sensible clones, just trying to outline some of the deep seated prejudices out there. They may read in the paper about boy racers etc,, but it is US, lane splitting and carving them up in traffic they see every day.
Polititians love this public perception, it allows them to use us as an easy target, rather than target a larger group, motorists. We do have a responsibility as a group to negate this image. Classic example was today on the ferry coming back to wellington. 4 bikes, 2 'old farts' and 2 young guys on an R1 and R6. The two on the R's were both on lovely clean bikes, covered in Dynotune etc stickers and with aftermarket exhausts. In itself, not a problem. Both wearing good 1 piece racing suits. (public image??) Anyway, during embarking, one had to keep? blipping the throttle. When we prepared to disembark, again he sat there revving the bike for ages. It became obvious it was annoying not only the 2 'old farts' but other motorists. His mate asked him to switch off, his response was to rev it even more. Good public image! Thats what we need to clean up. Yes I know boy racers in cars do exactly the same, but they are more socialy accepted than riders, sad but true. Most of their fathers would have been 'centre plot racers/cruisers'. I am sure many can remember a coulpe of years ago when the young teenager got banned for excessive speed? His fathers response was, "he's only just got it (car). He's young, of course he is going to want to see what it will do, why are you being so hard on him?"

[GrayWolf]

Last time I heard it was a National Radio interview with Paula Rose, Which would have put it mid-last year. The first time it was quoted to my face was 1991 by the head snake (MoT) of the time, whose name escapes me, during an earlier round of ACC protests and negotiations when the issue of addressing a truly horrible accident rate was raised.

It comes up repeatedly. If you want to get "the response", simply email Paula Rose and ask for her official opinion on advanced driver education.

Aaaah Yes paula Rose,
Now can I make the obvious suggestion here?? IF she quotes that advanced rider training promotes accidents at higher speeds, and we all know that the Police are trained using some of the UK Police motorcylce roadcraft manual, as is the training for the IAM advanced test. Maybe she needs to be asked publicaly how she can reconcile that statement in the face of those facts? Because if she stands by that philosophy, then she is also saying that Police riders are overconfident and liable to higher speed accidents.
This is the sort of question that needs careful 'planning' so it is asked in a hopefully large forum like radio or with polititians about.

[NONONO]

You gotta be shitting me... If thats the best you've got then we really are fucked.

To coin a phrase.

[NONONO]

Brian
Further to the above.
My sincere apologies for not reading your posts in the minutest detail, which they obviously warrant, you being a person of some import.
So, that's it is it?
You blaze on in, making the statement that you can unite the great unwashed and have a cunning plan to win the war.
And what is your plan? Tougher license tests and mandatory re testing. Never before seen on this site eh?
Try the MOTO NZ people, should fit in well with day glo vests, arse kissing, and lousy Kiwi Saver investments.

[Scuba_Steve]

I have all 6 classes of licence, and F,T,W and R as well, and 1 and 6 are the only ones that i didnt have to prove a high level of competence in to get. How many bike accidents involve trucks ? F All, why, because truck drivers are trained better and take fewer risks on the road.

Im sorry what??? I admit, I'm only upto class 2 of the trucking line. But you claim it's only 1 & 6 that are "give money get card" licences, we'll I'l tell you right here & now class 2 was no better than class 1 only difference was I needed a medical to get it.

[MSTRS:Me]

Brian
Further to the above.
My sincere apologies for not reading your posts in the minutest detail, which they obviously warrant, you being a person of some import.
So, that's it is it?
You blaze on in, making the statement that you can unite the great unwashed and have a cunning plan to win the war.
And what is your plan? Tougher license tests and mandatory re testing. Never before seen on this site eh?
Try the MOTO NZ people, should fit in well with day glo vests, arse kissing, and lousy Kiwi Saver investments.

Worse than that. He essentially disparaged all the hard work/effort put in by hundreds in the past and accused those still active in these sort of threads of being burnt-out, washed-up, negative has-beens, with no passion left.

Like I said first time round, Brian, you've been here 5 minutes, and you managed to insult and annoy some very good people. Unless you had something NEW to offer, why did you bother??

[Fatt Max]

I've heard a rumour that some even have teeth. Haven't seen one for myself though.

Believe me they are out there......

[Ocean1]

Aaaah Yes paula Rose,
Now can I make the obvious suggestion here?? IF she quotes that advanced rider training promotes accidents at higher speeds, and we all know that the Police are trained using some of the UK Police motorcylce roadcraft manual, as is the training for the IAM advanced test. Maybe she needs to be asked publicaly how she can reconcile that statement in the face of those facts? Because if she stands by that philosophy, then she is also saying that Police riders are overconfident and liable to higher speed accidents.
This is the sort of question that needs careful 'planning' so it is asked in a hopefully large forum like radio or with polititians about.

There's actually a valid point to her argument, and I don't think it's hers alone amongst the politbureau. The problem they’ve got is caused by several conflicting features of human behaviour. Firstly, our throttle hand is driven by an in-built risk assessment protocol that we find very difficult to over-ride. Secondly, the various attempts at restricting risky behaviour are currently set well below those average human behavioural limits.

But here’s the thing: It is their problem. Not mine. And it only becomes your problem if you’re arrogant enough to believe your opinion is better than those whose very lives depend on their own.

We like to think our own risk-taking strategies are consciously well thought out and that they should represent some sort of limit which everyone else should observe. But really, apart from the artificially generated angst about the road toll in general and our part in it in particular, what’s the problem? Considering the accident statistics objectively is not the road a remarkably safe place to be, considering the sheer mass of machinery hurtling about it?

I think we do pretty well, that the road toll as a measure of our safety on the roads and an indication of the speed we should be travelling at long ago reached and blasted past the point of diminishing returns. I predict this won’t prevent them reducing speeds further, limiting overtaking more widely and introducing more control mechanisms and traffic calming devices over the next few years. The miniscule difference it’ll make will be buried amongst many far more influential factors, and if those factors are positive they’ll be claimed as a success for the above, if negative, they’ll be used to justify yet more draconian measures.

Just call me Nostradamus.

[Brian407]

Worse than that. He essentially disparaged all the hard work/effort put in by hundreds in the past and accused those still active in these sort of threads of being burnt-out, washed-up, negative has-beens, with no passion left.

Like I said first time round, Brian, you've been here 5 minutes, and you managed to insult and annoy some very good people. Unless you had something NEW to offer, why did you bother??

I agree, why did I bother here. Obviously this is where burnt out activists come to die, and bemoan their lives while they do it. I think i'll go and find some people who care about their future enough to keep trying new methods, instead of constantly trotting out the old ones that clearly havent worked.

Like I said earlier, if the message isnt being heard, change the fucken message, and/or the way its delivered. Its not rocket science but clearly beyond the grasp of many here.

Enjoy your self pity.

By now.