Red lights and other urban myths

[oneofsix]

Interesting question.

In Churchur the traffic engineers are reluctant to deploy green turn arrows. This has resulted in people using the yellow light as a turn phase. Our worst intersections are the multi lane ones, big wide avenues. hen someone is turning, they have to cross several lanes of opposing direction before they exit the intersection.

At the same time as someone is using the yellow phase to turn (and not have to (gasp.....wait) there is occasionally someone coming in the other direction who is also looking at the yellow light, deciding whether to stop or nail it to beat the change to red.

Occasionally the person turning doesn't see the other car, and occasionally the person coming straight through from the other direction is nailing it. Too many times, these two crash.

The turning person may even have seen the oncoming car, and decided that the oncoming driver has plenty of time to stop, so will.

There are so many permutations for the yellow light crash, when it's very preventable.

If someone crosses the lines to enter the intersection and they just are just across the line when the light turns red, they haven't committed a red light offence. In Churchur the yellow lights are 4 seconds in duration, so if a car/bike enters as the light turned red, they ere 4 seconds back when it went yellow. At 50 km/h that's over 50 metres. Plenty of time to have stopped.

So may times we get the arguments about how the light had just gone yellow, when in fact it had turned red just as they entered. We hear all about the having to keep going because someone was so close behind, even where there is nothing behind. Basically, for every yellow light ticket there is an excuse.

The classic is a person waiting to turn right at a set of lights. They are stationary behind the limit line. They are waiting at a green light, waiting for the traffic coming the other way to clear. The light goes yellow, the traffic coming the other way (miraculously) slows because their light has gone yellow too, and the stationary vehicle sets off, using the yellow light as a turn phase. No problemo, until a driver coming the other way is nailing it to also beat the lights.

The general thought is that it's totally okay to go through a yellow light. Thing is, there is a condition on that.

(4) While a steady yellow signal in the form of a disc is displayed,—
(a) a driver facing the signal must not enter the controlled area while the signal is displayed unless the driver's vehicle is, when the signal first appears, so close to the controlled area that it cannot safely be stopped before entering the area:

The discussion normally comes down to one of whether the stop can be made safely. The driver is making a retrospective judgement, where they drive through, we confront them, then they come up with a reason why they couldn't stop, which normally bears no relevance to what actually happened.

I smile (always inside, of course) when someone in say, an R8 Commodore or a new Merc or Audi (all fitted with awesome brakes, enters an intersection a split second before the light goes red. We stop them, and they argue that they couldn't stop in time. LEARN TO DRIVE YA NUMPTY. Always only ever said quietly and to ourselves, of course.

Happy to debate traffic light things, it's like, Traffic Lights R Us. My section is called the Intersection Safety Team, I have learned a thing or two about the subject since we were set up.

Donuts

the embarrassing ones are where the light goes yellow and it takes time to evaluate if you can stop, damp road etc, by the time you have done that you can no longer stop safely or you try to stop but realise you aint guna make it but have lost so much momentum you are now finishing the crossing on the red.
Pet hate at the moment are red arrows, you can clearly see there aint any traffic but you are still held on a red arrow and you know you will have to wait for a full sequence before you get the go. Or they have a red arrow cause there is a pedestrian crossing around the corner, there are already rules for pedestrian crossing that say I have to give way so I don't need to be held on a red arrow long after the pedestrian has already cleared the frigging crossing.

[Jay GTI]

Interesting thread. The worst intersection I know of, just outside where I work, is the Fanshaw and Halsey Streets intersection in Auckland. Come 5pm and the madness starts... however, as clearly defined, the actual red light offences probably are few and far between.

Far more prevalent is the behaviour where a yellow is chanced by one or two vehicles, but due to the high volume of traffic (i.e. a slow moving queue of traffic on the other side of the intersection), the vehicles then have to slow and stop before they have left the intersection, so that when the green lights up for the next direction, these are vehicles sat in the intersection blocking traffic. I assume that by the letter of the law, this isn't actually an offence?

[steve_t]

So if I enter an intersection under a yellow light when I could easily stopped and you catch me, is there a fine or demerits? And do these bullshit excuses for why people felt they were unable to stop safely working?

[MSTRS:Me]

Far more prevalent is the behaviour where a yellow is chanced by one or two vehicles, but due to the high volume of traffic (i.e. a slow moving queue of traffic on the other side of the intersection), the vehicles then have to slow and stop before they have left the intersection, so that when the green lights up for the next direction, these are vehicles sat in the intersection blocking traffic. I assume that by the letter of the law, this isn't actually an offence?

I believe the law states that you must not enter an intersection unless the exit is clear.
Even when there is a chance that they won't make it through, people take the risk all the time. Sometimes it's a bad call...

[chasio]

Interesting thread. The worst intersection I know of, just outside where I work, is the Fanshaw and Halsey Streets intersection in Auckland. Come 5pm and the madness starts... however, as clearly defined, the actual red light offences probably are few and far between.

Far more prevalent is the behaviour where a yellow is chanced by one or two vehicles, but due to the high volume of traffic (i.e. a slow moving queue of traffic on the other side of the intersection), the vehicles then have to slow and stop before they have left the intersection, so that when the green lights up for the next direction, these are vehicles sat in the intersection blocking traffic. I assume that by the letter of the law, this isn't actually an offence?

Ah yes, I forgot the going-home twats at that same intersection. It's not a box junction and should be. Bit of a long way for RC to come and sort them out for us, I fear.

[rastuscat]

Far more prevalent is the behaviour where a yellow is chanced by one or two vehicles, but due to the high volume of traffic (i.e. a slow moving queue of traffic on the other side of the intersection), the vehicles then have to slow and stop before they have left the intersection, so that when the green lights up for the next direction, these are vehicles sat in the intersection blocking traffic. I assume that by the letter of the law, this isn't actually an offence?

Road User Rule 2004
4.5 Approaching and entering intersections
(1) A driver must not increase speed when approaching an intersection if any other vehicle is approaching or crossing.
(2) Despite anything in Part 3, a driver approaching an intersection or an area controlled by traffic signals must not enter the intersection or controlled area if the driver's intended passage or exit is blocked by stationary traffic.

It's an offence to enter an intersection when the exit is blocked by stationary traffic.

Thing is, to prove the offence, the Popo has to see exactly what was happening WHEN YOU ENTERED THE INTERSECTION. It's not enough just to say that someone got stuck in an intersection to KA CHING, ticket time. It's possible that the person entered the intersection when traffic was flowing, but got stuck when it all stopped and they got stranded.

Funny thing, these things often start out as common sense, get written into law, get argued in court by people arguing technicalities, and end up not making sense to real people in the real world.

From the tone of your post I suspect that you are well onto the problem.............something that looks like just bad driving might not meet the requirements for a KA CHING to happen.

I sometimes stand back and watch crap driving and ponder exactly which law they have broken.

[rastuscat]

So if I enter an intersection under a yellow light when I could easily stopped and you catch me, is there a fine or demerits? And do these bullshit excuses for why people felt they were unable to stop safely working?

There's the kicker. Got a noisy vehicle? Unregistered vehicle? There's points for that.

Nil points for red light offences, nil points for yellow light offences. Bloody ridiculous.



Penalty on the KA CHING is $150 for each.

The excuses tend to not work coz we write tickets based on what we see, not what people say. If I didn't think they had broken the rules, we wouldn't be stopping them in the first place.

[oneofsix]

I believe the law states that you must not enter an intersection unless the exit is clear.
Even when there is a chance that they won't make it through, people take the risk all the time. Sometimes it's a bad call...

Another law that has had a recent wording change. Essentially correct but consider the right turner, their exit may be clear but their path may not.
The entering an intersection when the exit is not clear has an interesting snowball effect. Consider a cross intersection, say North-south and East-west to keep it simple, where traffic is heavy both South and East (hope I got that right). Now lets say someone pushes across heading south but can't clear, the heavy east traffic is now blocked so when it does clear they feel they have the 'right'/'need' or whatever to gain back the time they were blocked, it is only fair after all right? and so it goes until there is now always vehicles in the intersection. Example; Kapiti Lights during rush minute or weekend rush.

[Parlane]

Penalty on the KA CHING is $150 for each.

If the penalty is the same, why is it not just the same offence, and why place emphasis on red light running, do you actually just mean "not-green" runners ?

[oneofsix]

If the penalty is the same, why is it not just the same offence, and why place emphasis on red light running, do you actually just mean "not-green" runners ?

The penalty is the same for many offences, doesn't make the offence the same. I think most people see red running as worse than running a yellow. may not be true but that is the way it is viewed. At least on the yellow the opposing traffic is still held by a red and it could have been a mistake, but running a red, to quote the stupid ads, no excuses.

[rastuscat]

If the penalty is the same, why is it not just the same offence, and why place emphasis on red light running, do you actually just mean "not-green" runners ?

If someone goes through a yellow that they could/should have stopped for, they get a yellow light ticket. $150, nil points.

If some goes through a red light, they get a red light ticket. $150, nil points.

It's just the way the law is written.

We hammer the yellows here because if people actually stopped for yellow lights when they could, per the law, the crashes arising from same would drop. Reds are our Gold-medal offence, we love them, but there aren't as many as people think.

[Lelitu]

There's the kicker. Got a noisy vehicle? Unregistered vehicle? There's points for that.

Nil points for red light offences, nil points for yellow light offences. Bloody ridiculous.



Penalty on the KA CHING is $150 for each.

The excuses tend to not work coz we write tickets based on what we see, not what people say. If I didn't think they had broken the rules, we wouldn't be stopping them in the first place.

bleh, I'm of the opinion that a red light offense should carry 75 points.
do it twice, and your licence is gone for a time..

yellow lights, perhaps 45? enough that doing it three times puts you over.

[oneofsix]

bleh, I'm of the opinion that a red light offense should carry 75 points.
do it twice, and your licence is gone for a time..

yellow lights, perhaps 45? enough that doing it three times puts you over.

you would put the Wellington City buses out of action within a day.

[Lelitu]

you would put the Wellington City buses out of action within a day.

Harsh, but I'd rather not have to dodge some bastard that ran a red.

[Jay GTI]

Ah yes, I forgot the going-home twats at that same intersection. It's not a box junction and should be. Bit of a long way for RC to come and sort them out for us, I fear.

He doesn't need to, the intersection is regularly monitored by the Police, usually with a video camera.

It's possible that the person entered the intersection when traffic was flowing, but got stuck when it all stopped and they got stranded.

This is by and large what does happen and as you say, technically hard to turn into a penalty (with no doubt any attempt to do so met with the usual undeserved derision). A bit of fore-thought, planning ahead and some monitoring of the blindly obvious would help solve this, but that requires a level of courtesy that some can't seem to manage, as getting home 45seconds earlier than if they'd waited for the next green is far more important. I can appreciate your frustration...