Which would you prefer, gas, tig?

[Ocean1]

I agree in principle. Unfortunatly the difference between trecherous and superlative is largely indistinguishable. And a lot of 'only average' is in the market place.

Anyway, enough beating my head against a wall. I have my toys at home these days and have no need to deal with the great unwashed

Kiwi engineers have a reputation worldwide, you're almost certainly aware of it. It's not based on superb work in any particular discipline, it's based on the ability to do anything, and to do it all reasonably well. We're like that because here you have to be able to do almost everything, we're not big enough to specialise to the extent they do elswhere.

Jack of all trades might mean you're master of none. Maybe. I can tell you it pays well, even here.

[Brian d marge]

Here we go again.

I am a trade qualified fitter welder with extensive experience in all of the major metal joining methods AND a great deal of motorsport experience up to and including F1


Metal joining methods are classified by the heat range that you are working within
Soft soldering - temp dependent on lead content
Hard soldering - includes Ezyflo, Silfos etc
Brazing (Bronze welding is a type of brazing)

These first three methods have a disimilar filler wire and rely on intergranular cohesion. The parent metal is does not reach a fluid state

Welding, by definition, requires the melting of the parent metal and application of similar filler wire.

The most versatile heat source, hands down is gas. Whether Oxy/Acelylene or Oxy/LPG or Butane. Fuel source/air is ok for lower temp work but struggles to generate enough energy to melt most metals
The drawback with gas is that the amount of heat transferred to the job can be hard to control. There are ways and means however.

TIG or Heliarc is a close cousin. The heat source comes from an electrical arc between the workpiece and a non consumable tungsten(alloy) electrode sheilded by a inert gas - usually Argon or Helium.
It requires skill and correct understanding of process and technique.
Alloys where one of the alloying components has a significantly lower melting point than the other causes problems (i.e. Bronze which is a mix of zinc and copper) The metal with the lower melting point burns and contaminates the electrode which in turn hurts the integrity of the weld.
Some metals require an inert gas sheild to BOTH sides of the join and some exotics benifit from being welded in a totally inert box.
On the plus side the heat source is able to be carefully controlled and done properly looks VERY PRETTY

Arc welding or MMA (manual metal arc) to give it its correct name is still a very valid method. The ability to control the arc and weld pool, and to introduce compounds into the weld pool from the flux covering means that a wide variety of very clever rods are availible. It is an ideal method for joining metals in the great outdoors but ot so good for joining metal under 2mm

MIG is the bastard cousin of MMA. THe arc is created between the filler wire and sheilded by an inert gas - usually an argon mix or CO2.
Any fool can pull the trigger. Plenty of fools do.
It is very very easy with MIG to lay a weld on top of the parent metal without actually joining it.

The problem is that a mm square of weld metal can hold around 33kg. So a totally shit weld will hold bits together.

My advice?. Learn to gas weld PROPERLY- from someone who knows shit. And when you learn how complex the whole field is, put your DIY ego in the box and pay someone to stick the critical stuff together. A mig can be a handy tool but understand its limitations

Most amateur welds are a serie of stress raisers waiting to crack and fail

Its nice to learn new things but seriously - ask yourself how many hours of labour you could buy for the price of all that gear?



Peace all.

Im the guy in the ofice that makes the drawings.

im guessing you are , feeling , here we go again,,,,,,,

no , Im not one of the best , I did get my ticket back when I was a young( er ) lad

Im just umming and ahhh ing , which set to purchase and threw the question up to get opinions

As I said , my feelings are gas , but if the gas is a pain to organise here , I feel tig ...but .. see my last post

Stephen

and if what I do is DIY , it dont half pay well.......

[Brian d marge]

I agree in principle. Unfortunatly the difference between trecherous and superlative is largely indistinguishable. And a lot of 'only average' is in the market place.

Anyway, enough beating my head against a wall. I have my toys at home these days and have no need to deal with the great unwashed

Next time you sit on your bike , one of the great unwashed , designed the bit that keeps you safe .

Stephen

[schrodingers cat]

Kiwi engineers have a reputation worldwide, you're almost certainly aware of it. It's not based on superb work in any particular discipline, it's based on the ability to do anything, and to do it all reasonably well. We're like that because here you have to be able to do almost everything, we're not big enough to specialise to the extent they do elswhere.

And good is the enemy of great. Once again I agree largely with what you say. It is a shame that too many kiwi tradesmen don't put the effort in to be truely 'world class'.

Jack of all trades might mean you're master of none. Maybe. I can tell you it pays well, even here.

Obviously you are happy in your work and I congratulate you on that. I'm well aware of what the industry pays - it just isn't for me any longer.
People often ask me to teach them to weld. Trouble is, I think it takes minimum of 10 years to be any good. If someone else want to teach them to stick stuff together so be it - i just think it diminishes the science and art which is welding.

Im the guy in the ofice that makes the drawings.

As I said , my feelings are gas , but if the gas is a pain to organise here , I feel tig ...but .. see my last post

If you feel you are competant with a gas set THEN buy a TIG.
It is possible to buy your own bottles these days so you're not lumbered with hire tax.
Better still, buy the bits to make a decanting hose and fill your bottle from a friendly engineering shop who has a healthy disrespect for regulations.

I'm pleased to hear that you have transitioned off the tools. You're not the only one. And your time on the tools (hopefully) will have made you a better designer.

[BoristheBiter]

If you need to do heavy plate get one of the new inverter arc welders that also have the tig cables if not use gas.

[DEATH_INC.]

I pay $300. If you're buying less than a couple of grand a month you'll be paying $400

BOC are not my favourite people.

I use Supagas for all my gas, way cheaper than boc and will fill owner bottles no worries.

[Ocean1]

And good is the enemy of great. Once again I agree largely with what you say. It is a shame that too many kiwi tradesmen don't put the effort in to be truely 'world class'.

I found the main barrier to production of great work was other people. So I taught myself what I needed; marketing, 3D modeling, project management, QA systems, welding. I was already a good machinist.

We're getting orders for equipment against competition with world market leaders. Based on that I guess very good in most areas is what it takes to be "world class".

Obviously you are happy in your work and I congratulate you on that. I'm well aware of what the industry pays - it just isn't for me any longer.

Most days, yes. But I found "my industry" wasn't for me either. However, I'm lucky enough, now to be able to choose what I do, rather than how much I have to earn. I've noticed that, perversely, for most people in that situation income seems to be somewhat better than might otherwise be the case.

I use Supagas for all my gas, way cheaper than boc and will fill owner bottles no worries.

Must do some research...

[Brian d marge]

Well im glad people are feeling the same as I , Tig is better for welding , gas is versitile

mig glues things together

I hope there are no barriers to gas over here , Ive just found my old gas set , swedish job , qiuite nice ...sooooo , I will try for gas first , then or if it goes pear shaped Tig ( as my tig skill arent so hot as has been said , cheaper to purchase other persons time )
THOUGH,,,,,,,,,,,,

There are a lot who just make things bigger , rather than go back to first principles , and designing for the load(s) , ,,sorry it annoys me that does, I know its probably faster and in the long run cheaper but its not eligant , like building a ferrari , from angle Iron
,
and on saying THAT ,,,there are a lot of kiwis in top flight motorsport, why , they get the job done ,,,isnt Niel spalding a kiwi ( motogp tech comentator)

Right ...as off tomorrow ,,,,One more meeting then off to NZ for two weeks ,,,

No work ,,well I will buy one thing , an old fashioned , drafting board,,,, damn they are expensive here

See you lot Saturday

Stephen

[Metal Doctor]

in my professional opinion. TIG is the way to go if your umming and ahhing about buying a welding set. A tig set will do anything you need it to do and is very precise, where as i dont like waving a gas flame around my bike.

unfortunatly a good TIG set is expensive and you cant buy the knowledge you will need to operate it correctly.

[The Lone Rider]

+1 for TIG.

For the little bit of tig I've done, once set up right it was very nice.


Gas was more easy going though.




P.S. - NZ engineers are known worldwide not because of any skill or creativity or quality. They are known because NZ engineering firms are happy to do one offs and short runs, that elsewhere they'll ask "How many thousands were you wanting?"

[Brian d marge]

P.S. - NZ engineers are known worldwide not because of any skill or creativity or quality. They are known because NZ engineering firms are happy to do one offs and short runs, that elsewhere they'll ask "How many thousands were you wanting?"

Same here in Japan
both Mugen and Hrc sub contract out to small engineering firms ( and I do mean small)

Stephen