Ye old whinging students?

**Robert Taylor** · 6th June 2012, 21:24

Originally Posted by mashman

How long has it been since you were at Uni? (15 odd years ago) Me, I raised a kid, and helped support a g/f at Uni through part time work whilst doing my degree but I couldn't do that today. It costs too much money and it pisses me off that there will be people in a similar position i.e. that want to go to Uni but can't afford it because it is too expensive a thing to accomplish. Every basic "essential" has gone up in price, food, rent, books, travel, fees etc... I wouldn't mind if the $43 million being saved was going to do some good, but it isn't. Sure there's noise about putting the money back into the education system in order to raise the standards of the educator, but how do you accomplish that where every other govt has failed? I know where some of the money is going to go, but that shouldn't cost more than $4 million and whilst it COULD indicate the need for educator training, there are no noises as to how the educators will be brought up to speed so to speak. It's a false economy and will put more "stress" on to some teachers... the last thing I want to see are stressed teachers and a lack of teaching continuity. For me this policy offers no advantage to joe public. Limiting the support for 4 years rules out a HUGE portion of the population and drags us even further into an educational class system, benefiting the few.

If there's no money, then surely the sensible thing to do is to reverse the tax cuts that are obviously causing the country pain... but that's be back tracking on an election "promise" and the majority just aren't worthy of that "support" it would seem, even if it goes towards crippling the economy.

Yes indeed every Government has failed but that in part is because we have too many people conditioned to ''vote for a living''. We need less Government and less burden on the taxpayers. As for the teaching profession it would be somewhat easier to instil learning if there was a decent level of discipline in classrooms, which clearly there is not.

**Brian d marge** · 6th June 2012, 21:32

Originally Posted by schrodingers cat

The 'Education Industry' was a brilliant scam. Reduce unemployment by keeping people busy with basket weaving courses and give lots of lovely middle class people cushy jobs helping young people become over educated with unrealistic expectations of the own worth and value in the workplace.

Blood, dirt and shit people. Thats where the 'real' money is produced. The rest is just churn.

couldnt agree more , ( or you could bugger off like i did and make some real money in a job u enjoy ! )

Stephen

**scott411** · 6th June 2012, 21:57

Originally Posted by Brian d'marge

couldnt agree more , ( or you could bugger off like i did and make some real money in a job u enjoy ! )

Stephen

or you could stay here, live in a wicked country, not have to deal with loads of people in big cities, and make good money in a job you enjoy as well, and have access to some of the best road riding, and dirt riding the world has to offer for very little cost,

the grass is not always greener overseas, but i understand it is for some people,

back to the education sector, I think the Uni's are the least of our problems, the polytechs that pop up everywhere and do courses that get the most students, not the best results for the students, or the employers they are ment to be helping are a bigger issue,

**mashman** · 6th June 2012, 22:49

Originally Posted by Robert Taylor

Yes indeed every Government has failed but that in part is because we have too many people conditioned to ''vote for a living''. We need less Government and less burden on the taxpayers. As for the teaching profession it would be somewhat easier to instil learning if there was a decent level of discipline in classrooms, which clearly there is not.

What do you mean by people conditioned to ''vote for a living''? I doubt less govt, or more govt for that matter, is the answer to "our" financial woes. What have the tax breaks done for the country? Where is the investment that these tax breaks was supposed to encourage? Govt overseas debt has skyrocketed (trebled if the wiki figures from the reserve bank are to be believed). Sure we can blame Chch, crown bailouts, the recession etc... but we've cut services and nothing has changed. we've given tax breaks and nothing has changed. It looks as though we're going capex crazy in order to make it look as though the operational expenditure is under control, where really we're paying more for the same service privately (still no stimulated economy) and in some situations hiring people back to their jobs at higher contract rates. There's no sense in what they're doing given that we're all paying towards the good ship NZ. There's no vision, just more of what "worked" back in the 80's even though the world has moved on by nearly 30 years since. You would have thought after all of the years of boom and bust that we'd have hit a winning formula by now. Odd that these great economic and political minds haven't been able to manage it thus far. Meh.

Anyhoo, back to education... I agree that there is a certain level of trouble in the classroom, but that's nothing new really is it? There's certainly more fear and I fail to see how this is a problem where exclusion has always removed the problem from the classroom. We're not all straight laced buttoned up the front robots any more. Victorian dad has most definately left the building. Yet another failure to adapt an existing institution to our "new" way of living. Unfortunately the programmes for "wayward" kids are getting hit hard in regards to funding, throw in a liberal measure of fuck 'em and we're well on our way to brushing the problems under the carpet. Tis a shame that most refuse to see the woods for the trees. Bottom line. Budget constraint kills ALL innovation (that's social, societal, institutional, technological etc...).

**Jantar** · 6th June 2012, 23:02

Originally Posted by Brian d'marge

Reach into your pocket and stump up 35k then tell yourself that the job you will get you could pay it back.

and if you believe that all will be well

Stephen

I'm returning to Uni after a break of 40 years and its going to cost almost exactly 35K to complete my PhD, and no student allowance or student loan available at my age. I will finish in the same year that I aim to retire so no job will ever pay me back. But it will be worth it.

**Winston001** · 6th June 2012, 23:14

Originally Posted by schrodingers cat

.... keeping people busy with basket weaving courses and give lots of lovely middle class people cushy jobs helping young people become over educated with unrealistic expectations of the own worth and value in the workplace.

Blood, dirt and shit people. Thats where the 'real' money is produced. The rest is just churn.

Originally Posted by scott411

.....I think the Uni's are the least of our problems, the polytechs that pop up everywhere and do courses that get the most students, not the best results for the students, or the employers they are ment to be helping are a bigger issue,

You both touch upon a live issue: currently there are polytechs offering competing courses in very narrow employment fields. Drama and video production are two among many which come to mind. Nothing wrong with learning those but the duplication across multiple institutions creates waste and mediocrity. Specialised subjects need to be concentrated in a couple of places.

**Berries** · 6th June 2012, 23:48

Originally Posted by Brian d'marge

or you could bugger off like i did and make some real money in a job u enjoy !

Horses for courses. I buggered off and ended up in NZ. Wouldn't change a thing.

**Brian d marge** · 7th June 2012, 01:08

Originally Posted by Jantar

I'm returning to Uni after a break of 40 years and its going to cost almost exactly 35K to complete my PhD, and no student allowance or student loan available at my age. I will finish in the same year that I aim to retire so no job will ever pay me back. But it will be worth it.

question is are you going to pay it back? many many OAP dont and good on em I say !

Dead is dead ..no puritanical , middle class views , just dead . 35k ,,,,Mr Key you can whistle IMHO

Stephen

**Robert Taylor** · 7th June 2012, 08:05

Originally Posted by mashman

What do you mean by people conditioned to ''vote for a living''? I doubt less govt, or more govt for that matter, is the answer to "our" financial woes. What have the tax breaks done for the country? Where is the investment that these tax breaks was supposed to encourage? Govt overseas debt has skyrocketed (trebled if the wiki figures from the reserve bank are to be believed). Sure we can blame Chch, crown bailouts, the recession etc... but we've cut services and nothing has changed. we've given tax breaks and nothing has changed. It looks as though we're going capex crazy in order to make it look as though the operational expenditure is under control, where really we're paying more for the same service privately (still no stimulated economy) and in some situations hiring people back to their jobs at higher contract rates. There's no sense in what they're doing given that we're all paying towards the good ship NZ. There's no vision, just more of what "worked" back in the 80's even though the world has moved on by nearly 30 years since. You would have thought after all of the years of boom and bust that we'd have hit a winning formula by now. Odd that these great economic and political minds haven't been able to manage it thus far. Meh.

Anyhoo, back to education... I agree that there is a certain level of trouble in the classroom, but that's nothing new really is it? There's certainly more fear and I fail to see how this is a problem where exclusion has always removed the problem from the classroom. We're not all straight laced buttoned up the front robots any more. Victorian dad has most definately left the building. Yet another failure to adapt an existing institution to our "new" way of living. Unfortunately the programmes for "wayward" kids are getting hit hard in regards to funding, throw in a liberal measure of fuck 'em and we're well on our way to brushing the problems under the carpet. Tis a shame that most refuse to see the woods for the trees. Bottom line. Budget constraint kills ALL innovation (that's social, societal, institutional, technological etc...).

The French have just voted for more Government, just watch that country go down the gurgler as well.
Governments everywhere are struggling with crippling debt because of many years of overspending and state handouts. Yes you state many other factors that are true enough but when you are digging a hole that is getting you into debt ( overspending ) you dont keep digging. Look at what that idiot Gordon Brown did to help cripple the UK.
The state in fact does not owe everyone a living, at ALL levels of society and wealth.

**scott411** · 7th June 2012, 08:14

Originally Posted by Winston001

You both touch upon a live issue: currently there are polytechs offering competing courses in very narrow employment fields. Drama and video production are two among many which come to mind. Nothing wrong with learning those but the duplication across multiple institutions creates waste and mediocrity. Specialised subjects need to be concentrated in a couple of places.

and i beleive for state funding they should offer some outcomes, I know there were alot of people that put dive masters courses, and helicopter/aircraft commercial liceince study on student loans (as an example of many courses), yet with the number of students their were, there was no way there would ever be enough jobs in the areas for all of them

**Brian d marge** · 7th June 2012, 09:15

Originally Posted by Robert Taylor

The French have just voted for more Government, just watch that country go down the gurgler as well.
Governments everywhere are struggling with crippling debt because of many years of overspending and state handouts. Yes you state many other factors that are true enough but when you are digging a hole that is getting you into debt ( overspending ) you dont keep digging. Look at what that idiot Gordon Brown did to help cripple the UK.
The state in fact does not owe everyone a living, at ALL levels of society and wealth.

the biggest component of the "handout" is to the oldies , the pension from memory its nearly HALF of the welfare handout ...cuts anyone??

Stephen