Gareth Morgan in the Herald on ACC levies for bikers

[caseye]

An excellent explanation of the no fault system...

With at least one notable exception.
That being that until recently all car and motorcyclists were levied ACC on pretty much the same level, it depended on vehicle size and weight as to what was charged, but there was NOT a separate levy on each class dependant on the risk of having to repay at a higher level when and if a driver/rider came to grief.
This is what has happened and it is this that we as motorcyclists abhor!
All of this under the guise of making the playing field level so that all motorists were charged fairly. Read, prepared for the next step, which did happen ( remember we! said "who's next") Increases in diesel rego's (happening again soon, weight going to be the big leveler and pretty much everyone with a diesel car to pay shit loads more.Yet again.
Increases in car rego's though not too much cause Joe Bloggs can't afford much more.
ACC was a, No fault, Accident Compensation Corporation, not a NZ registered Insurance company to be sold by the govt of the day at their whim after changing it about,so it made a profit!
This is the crux of the matter, it has been made to make a profit so it can be sold! At our and every other motorists expense. Deny that Gareth.

MOTO NZ members we at grass roots want to know what you! are actually doing for us, Not Nick dipshit ,US! I know . he's long gone, same difference.
You have our money at your fingertips, we'd like a say in how it's spent,I realise that you lot have been put in charge of that and that as far as the Govt is concerned, in you, they have us covered.

Currently for me personally, heres the bottom line.

Not one of you on that council have been put forward by us, our only representative has been removed for simply being outspoken and perhaps having our (Bikers) interests too close to his heart and being seen as someone that govt could not get into line.
OUR Perception so far, of what has become MOTO NZ is that we see nothing of any consequence coming from you and all we do see/hear is regurgitated facts and figures that the Govt spouted to all and sundry when they hit us with 500% increases because it was our fault we cost so much to rehabilitate.

Hi Viz bloody vests, road signs urging motorcyclists to look out, BS Guys total and utter BS.
heres one or two ideas.

Educate car drivers licence applicants about motorcyclists and of course cyclists make sure that they get a comprehensive test on and about how to spot US and push bikers, pedestrians, make sure that no one is allowed to sit a test with an interpreter ( They cheat and we get sub standard drivers on our roads)

Move dangerous road side furniture away from the roadways.

Make roading contractors Totally Responsible for leaving dangerous gear, equipment, materials on the roads which cause accidents. Lets not forget that there are many unexplained deaths where no one is left alive to say what happened because until it was too late they had no idea there was a problem ahead.IE: loose metal, tar strips that haven't set,tar that never goes firm ( too watered/turps ed down).
Charge them directly for the cost of repairs and rehabilitation It could and should be done in my opinion.

If we have to have wire rope barriers, lets get them covered with plastics that stop the ropes and the steel poles supporting them from ripping a lone rider apart if they do have the misfortune to come off.This would also assist in cars etc simply sliding along them and not catching and cartwheeling or worse as they still do! going over the top and into the other sides lanes.

Make sure that ACC makes it compulsory for all motorcycle licence applicants to attend paid for ( free, you know)riding courses before they get let loose on their own on the road with no supervision.

I've listed one or two things I'd like to see some action on, I have in the past spoken with road engineers who agree that the simple expedient of moving stuff back away from the road would save more lives motorcyclists included.

My biggest gripe, you guys seem to be doing the govt's work, against us, not for us.Change that perception and I'd be prepared to listen and more.

PS. Yes motorcyclists as a group could significantly improve our accident rates and rehabilitation costs, but it'll never happen while we see our money cossetted in your organisations hands and hear nothing but diatribe about Hi Viz and higher levies.
Get some positive incentives from the govt for us, no one else, lets us see what you guys can actually do to help us and then perhaps the mood will change.

Work with us and for us and it will happen.

[oneofsix]

One interesting part of the responses here is that it is fairly obvious MOTONZ is tasked with dealing with riders as a class of road user, and thats what all the palaver about statistics (and yes, I've heard about statistics and damn lies).

EVERY SINGLE response from you guys is "me" "me" "me", "I" "I" "I".

very enlightening. Sure, thats what people do, and how people are: we dont really give a shit about others, its all about me. But if you are specifically tasked with looking at a bigger picture, why would you be specifially blamed for that? Its hilarious.

Meh, whatevs. I'ma go crack open a bottle of Bollinger to wash my motorbike with.

How does that Bollinger go a chain de-greaser? Didn't think it was even any good for washing as it leaves everything sticky.

Not everyone is about me or I, some actual argue for the wider community but it is assumed they are arguing for themselves.

[Bald Eagle]

I suspect the $30 levy is already missing in the ACC general account and only exists as a 'nominal ledger entry' in some accounts.

I don't expect to see any of it spent to improve anything. MSAC / MOTONZ another quango spending our money.

[Murray]

The good news is that soon only rich people such as Gareth and myself will be able to afford to ride on the road, all you hoi polloi can go ride dirt bikes or play rugby or something.

I think this "hoi pollloi" (me) will go and buy a cheap car with cheap registration and going looking for rich tossers on bikes to knock over.

Doesnt matter if its my fault according to yours and Mr GM's logic. Still a cost against Bikers

[Lucyloo]

"Not one of you on that council have been put forward by us, our only representative has been removed for simply being outspoken and perhaps having our (Bikers) interests too close to his heart and being seen as someone that govt could not get into line.
OUR Perception so far, of what has become MOTO NZ is that we see nothing of any consequence coming from you and all we do see/hear is regurgitated facts and figures that the Govt spouted to all and sundry when they hit us with 500% increases because it was our fault we cost so much to rehabilitate."

Hear, hear! As far as I can ascertain there is not one person on the council or whatever they are called that was voted on by "the motorcyclists" of NZ. We were never consulted about having to pay an additional $30 for these unvoted people to represent us either.

Would someone please explain to me how these people even came to be our so called "representatives" and why, if there was going to be such a council, did we not have the opportunity to nominate and vote for the people that we want to represent us?

It seems to me that the council is just a mouthpiece for ACC and is gearing us up for the inevitable process of changing ACC into a private insurance company.


Lisa Shelley

[oneofsix]

Cagers have a rep on the council but as you say the only rep that came from a bike group was drummed out cause he told us what was happening and what he thought of it. Does make it sound like they don't like outspoken bikers, doesn't it?

[MrKiwi]

With at least one notable exception.
That being that until recently all car and motorcyclists were levied ACC on pretty much the same level, it depended on vehicle size and weight as to what was charged, but there was NOT a separate levy on each class dependant on the risk of having to repay at a higher level when and if a driver/rider came to grief.
This is what has happened and it is this that we as motorcyclists abhor!
All of this under the guise of making the playing field level so that all motorists were charged fairly. Read, prepared for the next step, which did happen ( remember we! said "who's next") Increases in diesel rego's (happening again soon, weight going to be the big leveler and pretty much everyone with a diesel car to pay shit loads more.Yet again.
Increases in car rego's though not too much cause Joe Bloggs can't afford much more.
ACC was a, No fault, Accident Compensation Corporation, not a NZ registered Insurance company to be sold by the govt of the day at their whim after changing it about,so it made a profit!
This is the crux of the matter, it has been made to make a profit so it can be sold! At our and every other motorists expense. Deny that Gareth.

MOTO NZ members we at grass roots want to know what you! are actually doing for us, Not Nick dipshit ,US! I know . he's long gone, same difference.
You have our money at your fingertips, we'd like a say in how it's spent,I realise that you lot have been put in charge of that and that as far as the Govt is concerned, in you, they have us covered.

Currently for me personally, heres the bottom line.

Not one of you on that council have been put forward by us, our only representative has been removed for simply being outspoken and perhaps having our (Bikers) interests too close to his heart and being seen as someone that govt could not get into line.
OUR Perception so far, of what has become MOTO NZ is that we see nothing of any consequence coming from you and all we do see/hear is regurgitated facts and figures that the Govt spouted to all and sundry when they hit us with 500% increases because it was our fault we cost so much to rehabilitate.

Hi Viz bloody vests, road signs urging motorcyclists to look out, BS Guys total and utter BS.
heres one or two ideas.

Educate car drivers licence applicants about motorcyclists and of course cyclists make sure that they get a comprehensive test on and about how to spot US and push bikers, pedestrians, make sure that no one is allowed to sit a test with an interpreter ( They cheat and we get sub standard drivers on our roads)

Move dangerous road side furniture away from the roadways.

Make roading contractors Totally Responsible for leaving dangerous gear, equipment, materials on the roads which cause accidents. Lets not forget that there are many unexplained deaths where no one is left alive to say what happened because until it was too late they had no idea there was a problem ahead.IE: loose metal, tar strips that haven't set,tar that never goes firm ( too watered/turps ed down).
Charge them directly for the cost of repairs and rehabilitation It could and should be done in my opinion.

If we have to have wire rope barriers, lets get them covered with plastics that stop the ropes and the steel poles supporting them from ripping a lone rider apart if they do have the misfortune to come off.This would also assist in cars etc simply sliding along them and not catching and cartwheeling or worse as they still do! going over the top and into the other sides lanes.

Make sure that ACC makes it compulsory for all motorcycle licence applicants to attend paid for ( free, you know)riding courses before they get let loose on their own on the road with no supervision.

I've listed one or two things I'd like to see some action on, I have in the past spoken with road engineers who agree that the simple expedient of moving stuff back away from the road would save more lives motorcyclists included.

My biggest gripe, you guys seem to be doing the govt's work, against us, not for us.Change that perception and I'd be prepared to listen and more.

PS. Yes motorcyclists as a group could significantly improve our accident rates and rehabilitation costs, but it'll never happen while we see our money cossetted in your organisations hands and hear nothing but diatribe about Hi Viz and higher levies.
Get some positive incentives from the govt for us, no one else, lets us see what you guys can actually do to help us and then perhaps the mood will change.

Work with us and for us and it will happen.

Caseye thanks for those comments I appreciate the time and motive for making them, although I don't agree we are working against you, we are bikers wanting to improve our safety outcome but its obvious the perception of our work is not always that. None of us are on the Council for fun, and often it is not fun, especially when it is easy for many to hide behind a keyboard and poke the borax, but I knew what I was getting into when I allowed my name to go foward.

Many of the ideas you list above are on our radar and are being actively worked on. Some of the ideas requires the Council to work with various government agencies which means sometimes the pace we go at is not as fast as we would like but when we need their input into projects we become captured by the pace they can go at.

As Gareth points out in his response, and I agree with, he is not defending the no fault system, he is explaining how it is applied. On that basis he is, in my view, correct. You are also correct that it changed and collectively many have a problem of moving away from the old way of setting the levy to a risk based approach. In that light Gareth's article is a thoughtful contribution to a wider discussion, even though I personally might not agree with all the points he makes. It is worth discussing the merits or not of those views.

[Flip]

"Not one of you on that council have been put forward by us, our only representative has been removed for simply being outspoken and perhaps having our (Bikers) interests too close to his heart and being seen as someone that govt could not get into line.
OUR Perception so far, of what has become MOTO NZ is that we see nothing of any consequence coming from you and all we do see/hear is regurgitated facts and figures that the Govt spouted to all and sundry when they hit us with 500% increases because it was our fault we cost so much to rehabilitate."

Hear, hear! As far as I can ascertain there is not one person on the council or whatever they are called that was voted on by "the motorcyclists" of NZ. We were never consulted about having to pay an additional $30 for these unvoted people to represent us either.

Would someone please explain to me how these people even came to be our so called "representatives" and why, if there was going to be such a council, did we not have the opportunity to nominate and vote for the people that we want to represent us?

It seems to me that the council is just a mouthpiece for ACC and is gearing us up for the inevitable process of changing ACC into a private insurance company.


Lisa Shelley

I also believe the National goverment is getting ready to sell off ACC, some thing to do with 14 billion dollars worth of ACC assets. One thing they will have to do is flick off all the unproffitable parts like ACC cover for MC.

[caseye]

Thanks for the prompt response MrKiwi. I do hope to hear from Gareth re this too.
I also don't necessarily agree with all that has gone on.
I can appreciate your dilemma when asked to go on the council. I do appreciate that there are issues which need to be discussed and others that you and MOTO NZ have to go only as fast as the organisations you are dealing with.
The biggest thing that is wrong between MOTO NZ and us bikers ( not necessarily represented in their entirety by us KB'ers I might add) is that until very recently we have had no dialog with you directly.
Yes many of us have tried and gone to your web site etc and registered, ask anyone here and they will tell you that so far they've received little or no response to their questions inputs from MOTO NZ from tier own site.
I am aware that some of what i have spoken of is on the table with MOTO NZ but most motorcyclists are not.
Can I suggest that you guys do post up a bit of a blurb with what you are ACTUALLY looking at doing, so we can yell at you and go poo poo, you know what I'm saying, information is knowledge being happier that you lot are attempting to represent us properly would be a good start.

[oneofsix]

collectively many have a problem of moving away from the old way of setting the levy to a risk based approach. .

Yeah risk based smells of insurance, smells of sell off.

Instead of risk based what about benefit based, for example;
1/ lower congestion as proved in recent studies congestion disappears if as little as 10% of cagers switch to bikes,
2/ fitter population, all that shivering must be good for something.
3/ less parking required. Oh hold on that means less parking buildings, less demand and therefore whilst it benefits the people it doesn't benefit the profiteers.

The reason it wasn't initially risk based was because it recognised that the victim of the risk wasn't necessarily the cause and that others benefited from the risk.

[Katman]

Not one of you on that council have been put forward by us, our only representative has been removed for simply being outspoken and perhaps having our (Bikers) interests too close to his heart and being seen as someone that govt could not get into line.

Brent never represented me and I'm sure there are many other motorcyclists who feel the same way.

His ego lost him his spot on the council.

[oneofsix]

Brent never represented me and I'm sure there's many motorcyclists who feel the same way.

His ego lost him his spot on the council.

He was the only representative from a motorcycle group. But you are right he wasn't put there by that group however what lost him the place was that he reported back to that group and the wider biking community. You might call it ego that he wouldn't bow down and let them tell him not to report back others may call it guts or honour.

But your and his egos duking it out on KB has been amusing.

[Katman]

He was the only representative from a motorcycle group.

Clearly you have no idea who is on the council.

[HenryDorsetCase]

Whatever. Whats the best chain cleaner: Bollinger or Moet & Chandon?

[caseye]

I like what oneofsix has written and I find myself pretty much agreeing with it, however I couldn't just hit reply with quote.
STONEY could not be said to have represented anyone who did not want to be represented.You are right, he did not represent you, nor anyone else who didn't want him to.
But he did come from our ranks and that was the first good thing.
Ego gets in the way plenty,as we all know.
You have a particular message here in KB land, I agree with that message 100%, I've said this before and I'll say it again and again until the numbskulls get it through their thick heads that if they'd just think for a split second before doing the dumb shit that we'd all be better off.
Back on track,Katman, if MOTO NZ are prepared to talk/interact here with as many as 16000 motorcyclists I'm prepared to listen, you?
Yep, there's not as many active on our threads as that but it is by default the biggest single group of motorcyclists in the country and it spans all other organisations.
Must be a good place to start.
MrKiwi G,M, Input from us could be useful, if we put it forward and if it is to be acted on can you guys tell us?