Gareth Morgan in the Herald on ACC levies for bikers

[bogan]

And that's the crux of it.

MotoNZ is just a sideshow.

The main issue is getting motorcyclists to wake up to the fact that the only way forward lies in their own hands.

Forget ACC, forget MotoNZ, forget statistics and concentrate on cleaning up our own back yard.

Ok, say somebody decide to clean up their own back yard, is there a list of things to do to improve ones own roadcraft, ordered by priority and effectiveness, backed up with relevant info? Honest question, and perhaps one that should get its own thread? The attitude is an important first step, but making the next steps as easy as possible is surely a good thing as well.

[avgas]

Forget ACC, forget MotoNZ, forget statistics and concentrate on cleaning up our own back yard.

I suspect this has already occurred. It may just be me - but I am noticing far less motorbikes on the road (even for a winter).
When I think about my bike has not moved for 2 months now.


ACC is stating the levies will go down when the injury rate goes down (http://www.acc.co.nz/for-individuals...x.htm#P56_2865)
"How can I help reduce the levies I pay?
The best way for you to reduce the levies you pay is to do your bit to reduce the injuries that are happening. For riding advice visit www.rideforever.co.nz or www.scootersurvival.co.nz."


However, if my beliefs are correct, and the latest stats show that in fact there have been less injuries on motorbikes in the last year.......that ACC will not decrease the levy. Which means the only way this gets cheaper for people is they give up riding altogether.
So I guess the writing is on the walls. Safe riding is irrelevant.
Pay up - or walk. Either way riding a motorbike is going to remain permanently expensive from now on.

Or you could simply break the law, not pay the rego. But there will be a time (unless its privatized) where no rego = no ACC cover. Which is probably what Mr Morgan is looking for. I mean an economists worst nightmare is the freeloader principal.

[mashman]

Or you could simply break the law, not pay the rego. But there will be a time (unless its privatized) where no rego = no ACC cover. Which is probably what Mr Morgan is looking for. I mean an economists worst nightmare is the freeloader principal.

I suppose situations like this would become more prevalent. (like these sorts of things aren't already happening... no cover for existing injuries for example).

@bludging freeloaders... oh noes, people getting something for nothing, it shouldn't be tolerated.

[tri boy]

I mean an economists worst nightmare is the freeloader principal.

But, he is freeloading of us.
Him and his mates who are funded by rego fees.
So, is he a economist, or a parasite. (guess they can be one in the same)

[Katman]

However, if my beliefs are correct, and the latest stats show that in fact there have been less injuries on motorbikes in the last year.......that ACC will not decrease the levy.

Even if the ACC levy never comes down, if our crash rate drops we've still won.

Our aim has to be not giving them cause to increase the levy further.

[Ocean1]

Ok, say somebody decide to clean up their own back yard, is there a list of things to do to improve ones own roadcraft, ordered by priority and effectiveness, backed up with relevant info?

Dude, better men than you have asked that question of Skatman over the years.

Many many times.

He's never fronted.

[flyingcrocodile46]

Dude, better men than you have asked that question of Skatman over the years.

Many many times.

He's never fronted.

You would think all that steam would be good for something.








Anyone have any ironing that needs doing?

[Katman]

Dude, better men than you have asked that question of Skatman over the years.

Many many times.

He's never fronted.

That's half the problem.

Too many clowns thinking the problem will be solved with a magic wand.

[Bass]

It seems to me that we are all missing the point here. Consider this.
ACC was set up to be no fault and funded by motorists and employers. This means that if you have an accident, you are medically treated without regard to whose fault it was and the cost is borne by motorists and employers. It was done this way because the means of extracting money from these groups already existed and for almost no other reasons. However, this is not necessarily a bad thing.
But surely it follows, that putting the payers into risk assessed groups and charging them accordingly makes absolutely no sense when they are paying for everybody. How do you justify categorising the payers when whole groups of consumers are not levied at all???

I have read most of Gareth' comments as well. Much of what he says is logically correct but not relevant. He is not comparing apples with apples. He effectively admits that e.g. rugby players as a group cost about as much as bikers (in very general terms) but then effectively excuses them by saying that because there are more of them, the individual risk is less and so the comparason is not fair. I cry bullshit! Of course it's fair. ACC are considering us as a group and acting against us as a group. It is the group that is being held to account and so we are entirely fair in making comparasons with the money consumption of other groups.

It is the very fact that some of these other (expensive) groups consume as much money or more money than bikers, but are not levied, that makes risk categorising the payers untenable.

It seems to me that taxing motorists and employers to fund ACC is a pragmatic and practical way to raise funding because I am unable to suggest something better. But risk categorising them in the name of fairness while letting whole groups go untapped is just a logical nonsense.


One further thing - if you accept that the people who pay should be risk categorised and I don't, but I accept that it's unlikely to change, then Gareth is right in one thing; we should be able to reduce our individual levy by improving our individual performance. Employers have had that latitude for years and we are now effectively lumped with them.

[cheshirecat]

Training at test level going right up to UK Police bike stuff for the advanced license. Grades of license giving rego reduction according to grade. Make it real skills based not the PC attitude,1950's era, patronising, badly written, dangerous, muddled thinking, contradictory in parts, out of touch, cuckoo land. unintelligent existing test and road code we have.

[bogan]

That's half the problem.

Too many clowns thinking the problem will be solved with a magic wand.

What, like some clown thinking that just a change in attitude will fix it?

I didn't mean some box ticking list, but something that covers the basics, up to the advanced, in such a way as to encourage rider skill development. I guess maybe its one of those things that there will never be a consensus on, but something has to be better than nothing shirley?

[caseye]

This thread unfortunately proves the Govt's theory that once we as bikers stop being pissed off, we're all pusys.

Oh we're real good at giving one an other a hard time but cut the cheese and ask you to step up inhale and do something about it and watch the lot of you run screaming yelling it's not fair.

Katmans message is valid and applies to one hell of a lot of people who think they are good safe riders, when patently they are not.
This thread also raises the issue amongst ourselves here in KB at least, that so many are prepared to sit on the sidelines and snipe while making no constructive contribution to what could be a damn good informative discussion/debate about what we( you know, us, the motorcyclists) are doing to help ourselves.
bogan, Ocean, Katman has this time put forward a notion, one which was either overlooked or has been deliberately ignored in order to score bloody points, on you both for perpetuating the myth.
If just this small number of KB inhabitants could thrash out a clear course of action and then get someone to run with it , in the certain knowledge that they would not be shot in the back by their own kind we'd have made a start.
How about we actually read what is written, take it on board, leave all the preconceived ideas on the floor and reply with something that can be thought about by the others not simply reacted to.
Well?

2c's worth.

We get organised, we put forward someone from within the biking community who we can all support without bipartisan allegiances and attitudes getting in the way.
We start cleaning up our own back yard, starting with getting the attitude of I'm OK Jack and I will ride anyway I see fit no matter who else it might affect. Off the face of the planet.

Moving on to getting organised and helping trained motorcycle instructors to be well known and patronised by new and returning/refresher types.We make a case for govt to continue (as they have through ACC and other smaller organisations that support advancing riders skill sets through practical instruction) to be given on going funding so all new riders actually have to attend thier courses and MUST Pass before being allowed out on the big wide dangerous roads.

We prove to govt that we are serious and then we make another case for lowering the present ACC rates for bikes and giving control of what is laughingly called MOTO NZ, a group representing all motorcyclists in NZ, to actual elected by "US" types who can better represent actual real riders , not weekend warriors .
Note, I did not say Giving "Back" control, we never had it and it was never meant for us motorcyclists to be involved.

How about these for some starters?

Can anyone out there see why although time consuming this sort of approach would not work given time, effort and real commitment.

[Ocean1]

bogan, Ocean, Katman has this time put forward a notion, one which was either overlooked or has been deliberately ignored in order to score bloody points, on you both for perpetuating the myth.

In this thread?

I looked. Hard. You're gona have to help me here, all I see is abuse and derision.

Seriously. Not a single positive coherent suggestion.

[Voltaire]

That's half the problem.

Too many clowns thinking the problem will be solved with a magic wand.

its our own fault....fffst
its our own fault....fffst
its out own fault...fssst.
Clean up the yard...fsst
Clean up the yard...fsst
Clean up the yard...fsst
Selves to blame....
Selves to blame....
over and over and over and over and over......

[bogan]

In this thread?

I looked. Hard. You're gona have to help me here, all I see is abuse and derision.

Seriously. Not a single positive coherent suggestion.

Yeh, I'd be intersting in seeing this suggestion also.

If just this small number of KB inhabitants could thrash out a clear course of action and then get someone to run with it , in the certain knowledge that they would not be shot in the back by their own kind we'd have made a start.
How about we actually read what is written, take it on board, leave all the preconceived ideas on the floor and reply with something that can be thought about by the others not simply reacted to.

Its the running with it that is a big burden, and you and I both know, it's not a smooth ride! I think a good first step would be to answer the fuck out of the question I put forward before. "What are the most important things for riders with the drive for self improvement to do?" I think there is a more effective answer than go to training days, per individual I'm sure plenty of training days are the best value for time, however we don't all have access to these, and there seems to be a lot of plan B literature, that can be a bit daunting by the range to choose from. Is this a worthwhile thing to work on do you think? or would it just be adding some confusion to an already complex problem?