Gareth Morgan in the Herald on ACC levies for bikers

[Katman]

Which is good for numero uno, but what about others? I often notice how other people happily sit in blind spots, or just be content looking at indicators to figure out what other cars will do, why not try to stop them from having accidents as well as ourselves?

Serious question for you.

Which do you think is easier to achieve?

Change within oneself or forcing someone else to change.

[bogan]

Serious question for you.

Which do you think is easier to achieve?

Change within oneself or forcing someone else to change.

It depends on the change, in this case its easier to get ourselves to change. Other cases, like when some noisy fucker keeps waking you up by doing unnecessary shit like sharpening knives at 530am, its probably easier to get them to change.

My point is, its not about what is best for oneself, I already look for ways to improve my roadcraft; but what about others I care about that do not, how do we get them to change?

[Katman]

It depends on the change, in this case its easier to get other people to change.

Bullshit.

My point is, its not about what is best for oneself, I already look for ways to improve my roadcraft; but what about others I care about that do not, how do we get them to change?

In my whole time on here all I've ever tried achieving is convincing people that change is easier within ourselves.

You can all you like trying to convince cars drivers to up their game.

I'll against a different wall.

[Crasherfromwayback]

Change within oneself or forcing someone else to change.

You're trying to do both. First bit was easy I'm sure. Next bit...you may as well speak to a post half the time.

Edit. You beat me to it!

[bogan]

woops, total brain fart, put 'other people' instead of 'ourselves', I can see how you'd be surprised by that answer, as it is only the complete oppposite of what I meant

[Katman]

You're trying to do both. First bit was easy I'm sure. Next bit...you may as well speak to a post half the time.

Edit. You beat me to it!

I've already achieved the easy one.

Now I'm concentrating on the hard one.

[GrayWolf]

Is it not infinitely preferable (if not easier) to start insisting that motorcyclists use their eyes?

Kat at the risk of being downright 'obvious' stop thinking and preaching a 'one groove record', and start thinking like a slimebag (politician).
They have to be SEEN by the great unwashed masses to be doing 'something' to reduce the terrible carnage that has been highlighted.... ye gods man, let the bikers do it themselves? Where is ANY political gain in that? There is NO POINT continuing a 'monotone dialogue'. By that I mean, your the only one saying it, whether it has high validity or not.
It's like the 'dog control' laws, we all know they were a 'knee jerk' reaction, but as much as it was a knee jerk to the events, it was a high profile, lets DO SOMETHING media event that gets us (party/govt) in the public eye as taking action. As much as I would shudder at the thought, if by some terrible tragedy a group (say 10-20) large enough of motorcyclists were severely injured and/or killed, by a truck.... and it was a SMIDSY accident? I will bet my left, in fact and my right one too, that there would be an unstoppable 'political juggernaut' that would have hi vis as a law within a few months at the longest. It would be the political leverage to be seen to be 'doing something' the bastards love to be given.
Blanket statements like,,,,insist we should use our eyes? are wonderful.... so you approach a T junction at 100kph, assess the situation... OK stopped and looking at you (which we all know means nothing) is joe numbnuts turbonutter, in his 1990's high K's worn out, smokey Soobuu legacyGT or WRX. may be worn out but will still likely turn in 5 second 0-100 figures readily. He decides as you approach that he can 'go for it' and turn across you..... all you can do is take avoidance action... open ruddy eyed or not mate.. it now comes down to TRAINING, SKILL, ABILITY and most importantly, the one thing that is an unpredictable variable.. the poor fucker on the bike him/herself..... what if just for that split second they freeze? and mate dont tell me people do not freeze or take time to process 'danger' information.
If you try that sausage, I will simply ask you to go talk to a few train drivers who have had suicides or cars 'appear' where they shouldnt'... there is a split second WTF..... process, decide.. react..
BANG too late you just hit joe numbnuts, as he pulled out on you. Having your eyes open doesnt stop all accidents, it just gives you 'sometimes' a better chance of either surviving, or mitigating.

[Katman]

Kat at the risk of being downright 'obvious' stop thinking and preaching a 'one groove record', and start thinking like a slimebag (politician).

No thanks.

By that I mean, your the only one saying it, whether it has high validity or not.

Not these days thankfully.

[duckonin]

[QUOTE=GrayWolf;

Blanket statements like,,,,insist we should use our eyes? are wonderful.... [/QUOTE]

'
"Also add/use your brain in the equation"

[bluninja]

I wished having seen this I'd engaged my brain and stopped after the few pages

So for those KBers that use their eyes, brains, make themselves conspicuous, and work on their roadcraft and bike handling skills continuously....

How does one convince the not so committed/skilled to make the effort?

I 'persuaded' one young rider to attend a skills course nearby. He said how good it was and that, when I discussed the need to practice my braking, that I should go on the course myself as they did lots of braking practice. He seemed shocked when I said that practicing skills was something you did yourself, not just on a course. I told him that Bikers Gear had a closing down sale on tomorrow and maybe he should buy some gloves with fingers before he takes his full license in a few months.

The thing about personal responsibility is that it can only go so far in risk mitigation in a shared environment that are public roads.

Why is it so hard to focus on improved driving skills, rather than just pick on motorcycling? 31% of bike accidents are bikerider lost it....that leaves 69% with shared culpabilty....hitting this number from both sides would have a bigger effect than just focussing on the riders of the 31%

[Ocean1]

SET UP A FUCKING INCENTIVE SYSTEM. It ain't rocket science, just common fucking sense.

Like "pay attention or we'll grind your fingers off and snap your legs like twigs"?

Dude, skatman thinks he IS an incentive scheme. What he can't bear to think about is that his "message" might be less effective than real life consequences. Don't burst his wee bubble, eh?

[Voltaire]

SET UP A FUCKING INCENTIVE SYSTEM. It ain't rocket science, just common fucking sense.

I thought they had....by making bike rego higher than cars.....message: buy a car...they are safer....and with a metal box more forgiving of poor driving.....mostly.

Part from the Japanese wasn't the introduction of the Mini the beginning of the end for motorcycling as daily transport.....or was that Churchill.....

"Now this is not the end. It is not even the beginning of the end. But it is, perhaps, the end of the beginning."

[Usarka]

End of day people don't see rastuscat on his popo bike

May be they do?

Just saying.

If I had a dollar for every time I saw an ambulance/police car/fire engine stuck behind a car on the auckland motorway even with lights and sirens blazing I'd have $362.53 by now.

[GTRMAN]

It would seem from all the posting in this thread that the plural of 'Motorcyclist' is 'Argument'

Some say hi viz is the answer, others counter with cagers should be more observant, yet others seem so tied up in the 'look' of their gear that they can't see that someone wearing all black may make a hard to see moving target.

Is it any wonder that few people in a position of authority take us seriously when given the opportunity we act like a bag of cats?

Katman has a valid viewpoint, we first and foremost need to take personal responsibility for our riding and all the skills / techniques that come into play when we do.

Only then can we hope to change the attitude of other people.

The sad truth is that the perception of the many will always be tainted by the actions of the few. Can anyone here say that they haven't had some moron shoot past them doing something dangerous on a bike and thought 'statistic waiting to happen'? Well that is how most everyone in a car is going to perceive motorcyclists.

It is my experience in life that if you keep asking the 'but why?' question you can eventually uncover the root cause of an issue. So why can't we clinically apply this to the current argument? are we collectively afraid that it may result in someone saying 'you need to change'?

[wide chicken strips]

And that's the heart of the matter, which has apparently been decided to move to the later while we were watching something else.

Though considering it's Sir Owen, and Mr Gareth, I know which one I'd rather listen to


The risk figure is bollocks and irrelevant anyway, nobody pays either insurance or ACC on a per km basis. If you ever needed proof that MOTOTNZ are just an ACC propaganda machine, them running those figures instead of per bike risk provides it.

Analysing motorcycle safety on a "per km" basis is quite valid. The airline industry measures flight safety by "flight miles" which is a totally fair measurement of risk versus the amount of activity undertaken.