Suzuki S83 Boulovard, good/bad whatdaya know?

[Robert Taylor]

Hi Robert,

Would that be the same advice for an 883? Is there a big price difference between doing progressives and Linear wind springs (which I have no idea what they even are!)?
I was thinking of doing progressives at the next service, but if there is a better option without spending ridiculous money I would be interested. I ride fairly slowly, not aggressively and prefer to cruise. (hence the cruiser LOL). Race tech's would be on the cards for a future date. I don't ride well enough to even consider Ohlins.

This is the BIG misonception that many people have....''I dont ride well enough to even consider Ohlins''. Most of our customers are just like you, they want improved ride height / chassis pitch control but also with that they can have dramatically improved bump absorption. Thats what Ohlins provides, and to a much better level than the supposedly budget brands. They are made to improve the ride irrespective of what speed you travel at.
The other big misnomer is price, we can provide at starting at $1099 incl, compare that to Works Performance, Progressive brand etc etc. Maybe a little dearer but the difference in ride quality, ride height control, quality, longevity, servicability and backup is like being on another planet. Race Tech shocks whilst pretty good are more expensive as they are low volume build. We dont currently import them because of the pricing issue.
Progressives are a 1970s solution but we dont live in the 70s any more, and its a band aid. Like I said in my previous post at least 50% of the problem is poor hydraulic control, addressed by fitting Race Tech emulators.
Currently Progressive brand springs may be cheap out of the States, aided and abetted by their extremely thin margins that would be unsustainable here, the current exchange rate and that you wont get charged gst on entry, a real slap in the face to NZ businesses who pay gst. Money going to faceless Yanks instead of to New Zealand businesses employing New Zealanders and putting money back into the local economy. When the last business in NZ closes because of so much offshore buying then I hope someone will be on hand to turn the lights out......
Anyway off my soapbox, have a good look at those Progressive brand springs, theres another reason they are cheap, the finish on them is criminally rough, there are very minimal polish finishing processes to bring the finish to a smooth polish. So the rubbing inside the fork tubes is quite intense, exacerbated by theirridiculously long length. Thoroughbred spring manufacturers and suspension companies will use highly polished springs that are as short as possible ( but still with enough stroke integrity ) and long preload spacer tubes. So friction is severely reduced as is the likelihood of chards of metal slowly being ''polished'' off the springs by the inner fork tube walls. These chards being collected and embedded in the outer teflon coatings of the fork bushings.
If decision is based on price then thats the customers call, but to ''add cheapness'' there are a whole load of corners cut. Its like the anaolgy of buying a plastic bucket, todays examples are like tissue paper and dont have the iongevity that they had before the bean counters and mainland Asians took more control of the world...
If you were placed on 2 identical motorcycles, one with those dodgy Progressive springs and another with Emulators and linear wind springs and then rode each I know which one you would choose. It indeed costs a lot more to do it properly but the difference is HUGE.

[s8306]

This is the BIG misonception that many people have....''I dont ride well enough to even consider Ohlins''. Most of our customers are just like you, they want improved ride height / chassis pitch control but also with that they can have dramatically improved bump absorption. Thats what Ohlins provides, and to a much better level than the supposedly budget brands. They are made to improve the ride irrespective of what speed you travel at.
The other big misnomer is price, we can provide at starting at $1099 incl, compare that to Works Performance, Progressive brand etc etc. Maybe a little dearer but the difference in ride quality, ride height control, quality, longevity, servicability and backup is like being on another planet. Race Tech shocks whilst pretty good are more expensive as they are low volume build. We dont currently import them because of the pricing issue.
Progressives are a 1970s solution but we dont live in the 70s any more, and its a band aid. Like I said in my previous post at least 50% of the problem is poor hydraulic control, addressed by fitting Race Tech emulators.
Currently Progressive brand springs may be cheap out of the States, aided and abetted by their extremely thin margins that would be unsustainable here, the current exchange rate and that you wont get charged gst on entry, a real slap in the face to NZ businesses who pay gst. Money going to faceless Yanks instead of to New Zealand businesses employing New Zealanders and putting money back into the local economy. When the last business in NZ closes because of so much offshore buying then I hope someone will be on hand to turn the lights out......
Anyway off my soapbox, have a good look at those Progressive brand springs, theres another reason they are cheap, the finish on them is criminally rough, there are very minimal polish finishing processes to bring the finish to a smooth polish. So the rubbing inside the fork tubes is quite intense, exacerbated by theirridiculously long length. Thoroughbred spring manufacturers and suspension companies will use highly polished springs that are as short as possible ( but still with enough stroke integrity ) and long preload spacer tubes. So friction is severely reduced as is the likelihood of chards of metal slowly being ''polished'' off the springs by the inner fork tube walls. These chards being collected and embedded in the outer teflon coatings of the fork bushings.
If decision is based on price then thats the customers call, but to ''add cheapness'' there are a whole load of corners cut. Its like the anaolgy of buying a plastic bucket, todays examples are like tissue paper and dont have the iongevity that they had before the bean counters and mainland Asians took more control of the world...
If you were placed on 2 identical motorcycles, one with those dodgy Progressive springs and another with Emulators and linear wind springs and then rode each I know which one you would choose. It indeed costs a lot more to do it properly but the difference is HUGE.

It's good to see you believe in your product and i have no doubt about the quality in which you speak of.But,when the day comes when NZ businesses stop ripping New Zealanders off with over inflated prices will be the day that i stop buying from the states.A bike shop in Auckland were selling the same handlebar grips that i have on my bike,ISO Grips,$250.00 or there abouts,i got the same grips from the states $69.00 plus shipping.You put across a good sales pitch but you'll never convince me when your charging prices like you've quoted here.Cheers.

[YellowDog]

It's not the NZ Businesses ripping off the NZ Public, it's the manufacturers setting a higher price to NZ businesses. This is justified by the lower volumes ordered and also because they believe they can get away with it.

The only NZers doing cheap deals are the ones who play the spot price game and import as required. These guys come unstuck when the currency drops in value and won't be around when you need some support

[Robert Taylor]

It's good to see you believe in your product and i have no doubt about the quality in which you speak of.But,when the day comes when NZ businesses stop ripping New Zealanders off with over inflated prices will be the day that i stop buying from the states.A bike shop in Auckland were selling the same handlebar grips that i have on my bike,ISO Grips,$250.00 or there abouts,i got the same grips from the states $69.00 plus shipping.You put across a good sales pitch but you'll never convince me when your charging prices like you've quoted here.Cheers.

Yellow Dog has responded in part. Its another big misconception that ALL NZ businesses are ripping people off. Some may be, many arent.

Try reworking out your US$69 purchase with clearance charges and gst on top of that. That is one inequity where NZ businesses are bring ''ripped off'' as a basis of comparison. Its morally wrong that so much can be privately imported without accruing any clearance and gst charges.

Also the effect of currency, try reworking out what it would have converted to in $NZ had the currency been say US 60-65 cents. Yes it makes a sizable difference. When the US economy picks up their dollar will strengthen against ours. Of course not all goods are made in the USA ( North Mexico ) and thank heaven for that. But the exchange rate distortions lead to this plague level importing that hurts our local economy

Maybe you are employed by a company that is competing against such inequity. Its clear that the unemployment stastistics and real wage rates are sizably affected by all of the above.

[The Lone Rider]

ISO Grips,$250.00 or there abouts,i got the same grips from the states $69.00 plus shipping.

If you're talking about Kuryakn ISO grips... they are actually even cheaper than that since those grips are massed produced in Taiwan and get branded by many different companies. Kury put a bit of a premium on them since it has their branding. If you look on Trademe, there was a guy selling the unbranded versions for about $69NZ (and still making a profit).

[wysper]

Money going to faceless Yanks instead of to New Zealand businesses employing New Zealanders and putting money back into the local economy. When the last business in NZ closes because of so much offshore buying then I hope someone will be on hand to turn the lights out......

Hi Robert,

Thanks for your reply, I will take further questions to PM. I had no idea this was going to turn into an attack on NZ importers/business.
I work for an importer and know how hard it is.

I am more than happy to put my dollars to a local business.

[Edbear]

Hi Robert,

Thanks for your reply, I will take further questions to PM. I had no idea this was going to turn into an attack on NZ importers/business.
I work for an importer and know how hard it is.

I am more than happy to put my dollars to a local business.

I am an importer and I also know how hard it is.

I have endeavoured to keep the RRP as close as I can to the USD MSRP to avoid having customers go directly to the US, but it means my margins to my dealers are very tight. The actual buy price for the item is about 2/3 my cost price. I pay shipping/insurance, GST on the NZD equivalent of the shipment plus Customs Charges. These I pay before delivery. Then I have to make enough out of it to run a business and if I'm lucky I can even take some drawings for myself. While the business is growing so fast, I have to put just about every dollar back into it to keep up.

Fortunately my wife has a good job and my overheads are low...

[PeeJay]

Try reworking out your US$69 purchase with clearance charges and gst on top of that. That is one inequity where NZ businesses are bring ''ripped off'' as a basis of comparison. Its morally wrong that so much can be privately imported without accruing any clearance and gst charges. .

Want a "level playing field"
How about
Make freight charges a non tax deductible item
Make clearance charges a non tax deductible item
Make gst you pay on your imports non refundable

That way you will be under the same conditions as the private importer and no longer being "ripped off"

Couldnt be fairer than that

[Robert Taylor]

Want a "level playing field"
How about
Make freight charges a non tax deductible item
Make clearance charges a non tax deductible item
Make gst you pay on your imports non refundable

That way you will be under the same conditions as the private importer and no longer being "ripped off"

Couldnt be fairer than that

If only it were that simple..... The private importer doesnt carry stock, employ people, have overheads and provide backup service. As you are so certain of what is fair how about you start an importing company with premises and backup infrastructure??????

[PeeJay]

If only it were that simple..... The private importer doesnt carry stock, employ people, have overheads and provide backup service. As you are so certain of what is fair how about you start an importing company with premises and backup infrastructure??????

Carrying stock, employing people, having overheads and providing a backup service arent the exclusive domain of importers. Exporters and every other manner of business have the same "problems"

If you actually manufactured suspension, using Kiwi workers in a Kiwi factory your whining about private imports might mean something but you are just clipping the ticket as the money leaves NZ and heads to Sweden. The fact that sometimes you dont get to clip the ticket because someone sends their money direct (via the US where they get to clip the ticket) is what seems to upset you the most.
You see it as you missing out on something which you think is yours

Your continued whinging about private importers is pathetic.

NZ is no longer a backwater at the end of the earth where wholesalers could dictate to the retailers and the public.
There are new ways of doing business but not everyone likes change I suppose.

Considering you are an importer, wholesaler and retailer you must be getting a reasonable bite of the cherry.
I guess thats why you get upset with private imports.

And for the record we do operate an importing company, also exporting so we get it both ways.

[Robert Taylor]

Carrying stock, employing people, having overheads and providing a backup service arent the exclusive domain of importers. Exporters and every other manner of business have the same "problems"

If you actually manufactured suspension, using Kiwi workers in a Kiwi factory your whining about private imports might mean something but you are just clipping the ticket as the money leaves NZ and heads to Sweden. The fact that sometimes you dont get to clip the ticket because someone sends their money direct (via the US where they get to clip the ticket) is what seems to upset you the most.
You see it as you missing out on something which you think is yours

Your continued whinging about private importers is pathetic.

NZ is no longer a backwater at the end of the earth where wholesalers could dictate to the retailers and the public.
There are new ways of doing business but not everyone likes change I suppose.

Considering you are an importer, wholesaler and retailer you must be getting a reasonable bite of the cherry.
I guess thats why you get upset with private imports.

And for the record we do operate an importing company, also exporting so we get it both ways.

And to not put too fine a point on it we pick up the pieces when the offshore purchase proves to not be set up as requested, this happens more than you would realise. As for ''clipping the ticket'', if only it were that simple. We are not selling fine crystal that doesnt requires individualised set up and knowledge. Local knowledge is also a key factor.

Wholesale and retail margins are pretty much a thing of the past in many industries, including this one so any thoughts that what I am doing is a land of milk and honey are well wide of the mark.

As for whinging I totally reject that allegation, I am well aware of the market realities and have adapted accordingly. But I have every right to point out the inequities and the very real negatives.

Also I am not hiding behind a forum name and therefore having the luxury to snipe anonymously without disclosing what I do. My choice of course.

[PeeJay]

And to not put too fine a point on it we pick up the pieces when the offshore purchase proves to not be set up as requested, this happens more than you would realise. As for ''clipping the ticket'', if only it were that simple. We are not selling fine crystal that doesnt requires individualised set up and knowledge. Local knowledge is also a key factor.

Wholesale and retail margins are pretty much a thing of the past in many industries, including this one so any thoughts that what I am doing is a land of milk and honey are well wide of the mark.

As for whinging I totally reject that allegation, I am well aware of the market realities and have adapted accordingly. But I have every right to point out the inequities and the very real negatives.

Also I am not hiding behind a forum name and therefore having the luxury to snipe anonymously without disclosing what I do. My choice of course.

Fair enough but your answer to a perceived "problem" is to make a law against it. (going by some of your previous posts)

Its your attitude to private imports that I have trouble understanding.

eg
these figures are all general guesses on my part
case A you sell a shock for $1000, fit and adjust to suit the riders wants and needs, everyone happy.
case B buyer buys their own shock for $750 all up, isnt happy, goes to you and spends another $500, everyone mostly happy ($250 too much but he can live with it)

Surely case B has been worth it to you?

Calling private importers parasites must have cost you so much setup business, would you give your custom to a business which calls you a parasite?

You always bring up having to pay customs and gst whereas private importers dont.
Only a half truth.
Majority of private importers pay as well if their goods are over the threshhold probably $300US at the moment. I know a lot dont.

As for GST you effectively dont pay gst, pay it to customs one day, next day ird give it back to you.
The way I see it, that is a deliberate dissemination of misinformation on your part.

There are other businesses importing Ohlins to NZ, I guess most of them use some generic setup supplied by the US dealer, why not do a deal with them re setup?
Of course you may have to eat a little humble pie, but who hasnt at some stage?

Instead of looking at private importing as a problem, look at it as an opportunity

Will require an attitude change tho

But you know all this already

[Robert Taylor]

[QUOTE=PeeJay;1130366364]Fair enough but your answer to a perceived "problem" is to make a law against it. (going by some of your previous posts)

Its your attitude to private imports that I have trouble understanding.

eg
these figures are all general guesses on my part
case A you sell a shock for $1000, fit and adjust to suit the riders wants and needs, everyone happy.
case B buyer buys their own shock for $750 all up, isnt happy, goes to you and spends another $500, everyone mostly happy ($250 too much but he can live with it)

Surely case B has been worth it to you?

Calling private importers parasites must have cost you so much setup business, would you give your custom to a business which calls you a parasite?

You always bring up having to pay customs and gst whereas private importers dont.
Only a half truth.
Majority of private importers pay as well if their goods are over the threshhold probably $300US at the moment. I know a lot dont.

As for GST you effectively dont pay gst, pay it to customs one day, next day ird give it back to you.
The way I see it, that is a deliberate dissemination of misinformation on your part.

There are other businesses importing Ohlins to NZ, I guess most of them use some generic setup supplied by the US dealer, why not do a deal with them re setup?
Of course you may have to eat a little humble pie, but who hasnt at some stage?

Instead of looking at private importing as a problem, look at it as an opportunity

Will require an attitude change tho

You dont know me that well, we do turn this to our commercial advantage. But those that parallell import numbers of ANY product to pick the eyes out of it are essentially parasitical to the recognised distributors that have heavy investment and also in training and equipment. That is very wrong, as wrong as rank profiteering.

BTW its a Swedish product, its not sourced out of the States

[The Lone Rider]

This has turned into an awesome conversation on the S83

[Robert Taylor]

This has turned into an awesome conversation on the S83

Indeed, the salient points re the S83 remain. I.e like other cruisers it can be improved enormously in the suspension department. And the cheapest route to doing so isnt neccessarily a good fix, especially when you are relying on the ''goodwill'' of overseas suppliers. Cynically ( and maybe not so cynically ) every overseas sale is a bonus to them, and if they get any heat for the upgrade not being as good as expected then they are several steps removed ( another hemisphere ) and can bluff their way out of it .

Its worth elaborating and this applies to suspension upgrades to many bikes

1) Dont implicitly trust spring rate calculators off overseas websites as there are many factors they dont take into account, such as;

a) Rider height and therefore a slight difference in seating position rearwards compared to a shorter rider of the same weight, therefore a difference in leverage applied to the swingarm

b) Tyres used, different brands of tyres impart different frequency into the suspension, impacting on the required setup

c) Overall load, its not only about the weight of that load but how it is dispositioned on the motorcycle. 30kg of baggage behind the rear axle centreline is a whole lot different to 30kgs of baggage forward of the centreline

d) Roads ridden on. How some Yank selling a shock to you knows something about the mix of our roads is beyond me, will he care?

e) RIDER FEEL. This is also a biggie. One mans meat is another mans poison, some customers prefer springing on the softer side, some like relatively rigid. At least if you purchase local the springing can be happily exchanged if your own personal preference doesnt totally concur with the calcs

2) VALVING. Local road conditions often dictate that we make a valving change to suit, that is within the sale price


As a businessman / citizen and someone who actually cares about where this country is heading I can appreciate that there are many people out there on very limited incomes and it is natural to look for the lowest prices. But then at the same time Im thinking what factors conspire to keep wage rates down? There are of course many answers to that and among them is that all this offshore purchasing ( accelearted somewhat by our strong dollar and weak US dollar ) is further hindering the availability of real jobs out there and therefore wage rates. Every sale lost to offshore costs jobs here, care to argue?

The natural response is ''why are we getting ripped off by NZ businesses? "' Sure there will be a number of businesses creaming it but certainly not in general in the motorcycle industry and many others. In fairness many have adapted to the new realities, many havent.

Peejay assumed that our business had 2 margins, wholesale and retail. Those days are well and truly over and really what was wholesale is the new retail. In fact our prices are in general oh so close to offshore buying but with the added bonus of local knowledge and very comprehensive backup.

As a distributor we have a huge investment in equipment, advertising , representative stock and also regular offshore training so we are up to date with what the factory requires of us. That neccessarily comes at a cost and you have to sell a LOT of product just to break even. This is why, given our committment we regard those who are privately importing numbers of suspension units ( of the same brand ) to commercially resell as parasitical. They dont have the commitment to the product, its merely another money generator that they pick the eyes out of. I make no apologies for saying so. I reserve a right to ''grizzle'' about what I see as wrong.

And talking about gst lets look at it from another angle, if a consumer buys goods locally off a NZ business, gst is charged, whatever the value of goods. Why should it be any different if you purchase offshore? The Government ( any Government ) sure needs the revenue. GST is indeed a merry go round for many businesses but you in effect dont get it all back. You pay it to the Government who use that ( your money ) for a period of time. So oversimplistically you run a bigger overdraft ( that you pay interest on ) because that money is being used and you employ an accountant to determine what you get back. Im no accountant but if anyone on here says that running a small business is a bed of roses then theyve got their heads firmly in the sand.

We have a number of customers that come to us wanting their offshore purchases sorted out because they are either incorrectly sprung or the internal valving is too firm for our roads. This applies across many brands! Whilst we are in no way obliged to do them any favours they are new customers and are charged a fair price for a good job. It usually results in repeat custom further down the track because they find out that full backup and fair pricing is available in this industry in NZ.

Every month of the year we get a number of enquiries from Australia for product, we politely decline and refer them back to the Aussie distributor. We are not in that country to back the product up. Thats old fashioned etiquette but Im sticking to it.