If you are scared of bullets

[Brett]

( seems we're disagreeing on a lot less than you gave me credit? for)

I second all of those comments in your quoted post.

[Maki]

There is a reason that this poem has been adopted by special forces groups, including SAS:

The Golden Road to Samarkand

They ask:
But who are ye in rags and rotten shoes,
You dirty-bearded, blocking up the way?

We answer:
We are the Pilgrims, master; we shall go
Always a little further; it may be
Beyond that last blue mountain barred with snow
Across that angry or that glimmering sea,

White on a throne or guarded in a cave
There lies a prophet who can understand
Why men were born: but surely we are brave,
Who take the Golden Road to Samarkand.

The whole poem is very long, available HERE for those interested.

When you're wounded and left on Afghanistan's plains,
And the women come out to cut up what remains,
Jest roll to your rifle and blow out your brains
An' go to your Gawd like a soldier.
Go, go, go like a soldier,
Go, go, go like a soldier,
Go, go, go like a soldier,

Rudyard Kipling

[short-circuit]

So ...to apply your logic, if a guy in the next street from me regularly beats his wife and kids, pours acid in their faces and generally treats them like shit, and I happen to be someone who knows about it and is big enough and brave enough to defend them, I have no place getting involved? Never mind that the wife and kids are too scared and powerless to say anything because the houses in their road are filled with families suffering the same fate? You're saying that I should stay in my comfy rich man's house and not help them because it's their business not mine?

And FYI - their culture has changed a lot over the last thousand years. To say that it is better than our because it is more established is pretty retarded...If we're going to take that view, there are many much older cultures and civilisations that provide a much better example.

Akzle - can I ask you...have you ever been to the middle east, africa or somewhere similar where people's rights are so disrespected? Is it possible that you're view is skewed by the fact that you are perceiving these nations incorrectly?

Hook line and sinker. Yah, military intervention for humanitarian reasons...oh and democracy.

HA!

[Road kill]

As shit as it is, managing our planet and people properly sometimes entails that we go to war. People are complicated, nations are complicated. Not all nations are as 'civilised' as NZ, you will never get everyone on the same page. Some people would oppose your views just for the sake of it. New Zealand (thanksfully) is very isolated and insulated in many ways from the outside world. It allows kiwi's who have not experienced the great wide world to form a naive, narrow world view. Some people, not a particular attack on you Maki, just cannot see that it is the place of the more developed nations to protect the fundamental rights of the weaker nations and oppressed people. Unfortunately, ignoring the bully doesn't always work. sometimes you have to beat the living snot out of him to stop him hurting others.

Face the fact that throughout history nobody has ever helped,saved,or protected that place from themselves.

And it's ain't happening now,in fact the only thing that has changed in this whole mess from start to now is that Kiwi's are now dieing for it.

The best thing that could be done for that country if anybody really wanted to help this is to arm all the locals up with the best arms on the planet and let them sort it themselves.

Then if they win you can do bussiness with the new order,,,that's if they'll talk to you

[Akzle]

So only those with the means to be heard should be listened to?

If 80% of the people over there were to want a western democracy, would you consider it a just war of liberation?

1) bahahahhaa. no. only those with nukes and duly elected leaders should be listened to. eh?

2) DOES 80% of their population want western democracy?
seems like they're looking at the corruption, the greed and the loose a55 attitude that passes for "morality" and saying "next!"
you think if 80% of the population wanted something they could be beaten down by 20%...? that really would be like western democracy eh?

-edit- also highly ironic that the 80% you mention represents number of allied soldiers v. number of terrorists. majority rule eh?

Edit - how could you possibly infer those comments from our posts? Is your reading comprehension limited?

So ...to apply your logic, if a guy in the next street from me regularly beats...

And FYI - their culture has changed a lot over the last thousand years....

Akzle - can I ask you...have you ever been to the middle east, africa...

1) you weren't "applying my logic" that's an oxymoron in and of itself. if someone in your street is doing something you believe to be illegal you should phone the police and let our democratic justice system deal with it.
but "applying YOUR logic", if someone on the other side of the planet decides to vote for a puppet/ president that is going to lubricate the wheels of commerce with a good old fashioned land based invasion/shootin-bomb-droppin war/ securing oil and drugs campaign, that i should not do anything? that i should support people from my side of the planet into their war? that i should believe they have the right to enforce their beliefs outside their legal borders?
2) "how can i infer...?" that seems to be your attitude. i'll do a good multi-quotey when/if i can be bothered.
3) "their culture..." is that. theirs. they don't want ours. YOU want them to have ours. i don't want them to have ours. i'd rather WE had theirs. maybe i should hook up some IEDs in town then come round and burn your heretic a55. eh?
4) no. in my adult life i have not travelled beyond NZ. i know several people who have. and found it hilarious when the first thing they were taught in native-tongue was "i am not american. don't shoot me."

[mashman]

Hook line and sinker. Yah, military intervention for humanitarian reasons...oh and democracy.

HA!

How would one pay for such sterling services? I assume because we went to them that our services are free? If not, wouldn't that make our countries armed forces mercenaries?

I'm with the getting the fuck out of dodge brigade. They went to fight terrorists, no, they went to defend the people from some militant organisation just like the Russians did, no, they went to deliver democracy and show the way of the west, or, they went to die for no real reason at all other than to do what they were told by those in command. I don't see us, that's the world, tackling the on going decades of violence and oppression in Africa. Why not? Is it coz they iz black? is it because they aren't a threat (so much for humanitarian causes)? is it because whitey already owns the place (fuckloads of debt, so much they can write off billions and still make fuckloads of money)? Africa's issues have been going on longer than the Easts, why haven't we been there and sorted that? And why did we go to Iraq? Why spooling for a fight with Iran? and on and on and on with the nonsense that is why we go to war. A small group want something or take offence, a large group go to die and defend the position of the small group under some acepted banner. Get 'em out.

[bogan]

1) bahahahhaa. no. only those with nukes and duly elected leaders should be listened to. eh?

2) DOES 80% of their population want western democracy?
seems like they're looking at the corruption, the greed and the loose a55 attitude that passes for "morality" and saying "next!"
you think if 80% of the population wanted something they could be beaten down by 20%...? that really would be like western democracy eh?

-edit- also highly ironic that the 80% you mention represents number of allied soldiers v. number of terrorists. majority rule eh?

I have no idea how many would want democracy it, and of course 20% can beat down 80%, especially if the 20% have the boot firmly to the next of the 80%. How are dudes in mud huts with a few goats supposed to take on guys with AKs and RPGs? How are they even to know that 80% want to take them on?
All I'm saying is it isn't as clear cut as they are over there, so let em deal with their own shit.

The number actually came from Asher's Polity sci-fi series, where the AIs do a poll and bring the planet under their rule if 80% ever want this to happen.

[short-circuit]

How would one pay for such sterling services? I assume because we went to them that our services are free? If not, wouldn't that make our countries armed forces mercenaries?

I'm with the getting the fuck out of dodge brigade. They went to fight terrorists, no, they went to defend the people from some militant organisation just like the Russians did, no, they went to deliver democracy and show the way of the west, or, they went to die for no real reason at all other than to do what they were told by those in command. I don't see us, that's the world, tackling the on going decades of violence and oppression in Africa. Why not? Is it coz they iz black? is it because they aren't a threat (so much for humanitarian causes)? is it because whitey already owns the place (fuckloads of debt, so much they can write off billions and still make fuckloads of money)? Africa's issues have been going on longer than the Easts, why haven't we been there and sorted that? And why did we go to Iraq? Why spooling for a fight with Iran? and on and on and on with the nonsense that is why we go to war. A small group want something or take offence, a large group go to die and defend the position of the small group under some acepted banner. Get 'em out.

We really need a sarcasm emoticon-thingy-whatsit

[FJRider]

... DOES 80% of their population want western democracy?

you think if 80% of the population wanted something they could be beaten down by 20%...? that really would be like western democracy eh?

-edit- also highly ironic that the 80% you mention represents number of allied soldiers v. number of terrorists. majority rule eh?

80 % of the Afgan population dont live in the major cities.

That 80 % of population want their children (and themselves) to get an education.

That 80 % of population want medical care available for their children (and themselves).

That 80 % of population want to work in jobs that will benefit themselves and their country.

That 80 % of population ARE being told how their lives will be lived, and the strict rules they have to live by in that life. By LESS than the remaining 20 % of population.

Probably closer to 5 % of the population ... are attempting to dictate their religious teachings into their life. With public executions the norm, for those that choose not obey the rules to the letter.
Any business or building, or item (of any shape or form) that doesn't fit into the "True culture of Islam" is simply removed. (Read blown up/destroyed)
So if (when) the Catholics take over as the main religious force in this country (if the Mormans dont beat them to it) imagine them going around blowing up pubs, casinos, shops that sell forbidden items, and kill the owners/workers of those business's ... people may start to understand what might be happening over there.

Rules that have been their life since Jesus was a boy ... and before. Will most likely still be their life for many years to come. Those that take their battle to western society ... and then choose to hide in the protection of their adopted lands. Out of convenience ... not national pride, and (or) religious fevor ... are being sought out.

[Road kill]

I have no idea how many would want democracy it, and of course 20% can beat down 80%, especially if the 20% have the boot firmly to the next of the 80%. How are dudes in mud huts with a few goats supposed to take on guys with AKs and RPGs? How are they even to know that 80% want to take them on?
All I'm saying is it isn't as clear cut as they are over there, so let em deal with their own shit.

The number actually came from Asher's Polity sci-fi series, where the AIs do a poll and bring the planet under their rule if 80% ever want this to happen.

NZ could solves it's national debt by making and sell arms to the 80%.

History would show NZ to have been the country that cared enough to elevate the 80% to true self determination,,,and we'd be rich.

[Kickaha]

We live here in NZ not fucking France.Where the first shot fired causes the automatic raising of a white flag.
Yep, they've already gone home.

If you're going to make comments like that you should at least make sure they're accurate

They have not already gone home and their early withdrawal was part of a pre election pledge by the now President Francois Hollande starting in July and hoping to have them all out by the end of 2012, most people seem to think it wont happen in this time frame

That is just their combat troops, advisers and trainers will still remain

That decison had already been made before the last 4 French troops were killed they now have 87 dead, but hey it's only fucking France

New Zealand is also looking at withdrawing its troops early

[bogan]

NZ could solves it's national debt by making and sell arms to the 80%.

History would show NZ to have been the country that cared enough to elevate the 80% to true self determination,,,and we'd be rich.

So, kind of a teach a man to fish approach? Teach a man to war, and he will war for a lifetime... hmmm, dunno if that is such a good idea eh!

[Tigadee]

So, kind of a teach a man to fish approach? Teach a man to war, and he will war for a lifetime... hmmm, dunno if that is such a good idea eh!

Too right! An AK-74 makes a terrible fishing rod...

[Brett]

Face the fact that throughout history nobody has ever helped,saved,or protected that place from themselves.

And it's ain't happening now,in fact the only thing that has changed in this whole mess from start to now is that Kiwi's are now dieing for it.

The best thing that could be done for that country if anybody really wanted to help this is to arm all the locals up with the best arms on the planet and let them sort it themselves.

Then if they win you can do bussiness with the new order,,,that's if they'll talk to you

1) it hasn't always been that way over there.
2) your suggested approach of arming the locals and letting them at it has been tried in a few nations with no success. I have lived in a nation like this for a while, it doesn't work.

1) bahahahhaa. no. only those with nukes and duly elected leaders should be listened to. eh?

?[/COLOR]



1) you weren't "applying my logic" that's an oxymoron in and of itself. if someone in your street is doing something you believe to be illegal you should phone the police and let our democratic justice system deal with it. how is "applying your logic" an oxymoron? Unless you're saying that you don't have logic that could be applied, or by it's nature your logic is illogical?
but "applying YOUR logic", if someone on the other side of the planet decides to vote for a puppet/ president that is going to lubricate the wheels of commerce with a good old fashioned land based invasion/shootin-bomb-droppin war/ securing oil and drugs campaign, that i should not do anything? that i should support people from my side of the planet into their war? that i should believe they have the right to enforce their beliefs outside their legal borders? That clutching at straws a little bit. Read my previous posts if your confused. (where I said that I acknowledge and abhor this where it occurs, but that they are also doing some good.)
2) "how can i infer...?" that seems to be your attitude. i'll do a good multi-quotey when/if i can be bothered.What you talking about willis? You intended to derive, by reasoning, things I had not said from the those words that I had written. Read what is written, don't try and "read between the lines". Feel free to quote me, I wasn't making statements, i was asking questions to ascertain your position.
3) "their culture..." is that. theirs. they don't want ours. YOU want them to have ours. i don't want them to have ours. i'd rather WE had theirs. maybe i should hook up some IEDs in town then come round and burn your heretic a55. eh? Really...? You're welcome to try princess, I'll put you to work, make you wear a skirt and start calling you Brittany.Punk.I don't want them to have our culture at all. In fact, i quite like different cultures and dislike many things about western culture. But to say that all Afghans have one culture is retarded. That's like saying that all NZers have the same culture, the Islander families in South Auckland, the Maori families up in Northland, the miners n the west coast and the rich folk in Herne Bay. Yeah Right. I suggest spending a bit of time learning about the different cultures and tribes of the Afghan region before making those sorts of judgements. I have and continue to do so.
4) no. in my adult life i have not travelled beyond NZ. i know several people who have. and found it hilarious when the first thing they were taught in native-tongue was "i am not american. don't shoot me."

hence my comments re: being insulated in NZ. Go to those places, see the people. Understanding the differences in culture, even within confined geographic regions might surprise you. please note, I'm not trying to say that your views and opinions don't count simply because you have never been to these places, they certainly do count, I am just saying that you might see some things a little differently.

[ducatilover]

Kiwibiker: A site for all New Zealand know it alls.

I have two motorcycles

Too right! An AK-74 makes a terrible fishing rod...

Possibly the most useful post in this thread


RIP to the fallen, it's a terrible tragedy that they were killed regardless of the corruptness of the situation.