Welfare support and drug testing

[mashman]

I guess I'd preffer your answers too, if I was delusional.

You're right about one thing, it doesn't matter why those who won't work choose that course. And reasonable? ask those that pay for it what's reasonable. It'd be entirely reasonable to expect that those that just won't work man up to the consequences of that decision and pay for their own holiday.

As for the not enough jobs thing? You keep trundling that out, it's bullshit, the sort of last ditched excuse one might expect from one of the "won't work" types. There's no grand financial conspiricy running around killing work opportunities, there's plenty of work out there if the work will get done reliably and well, and if it earns more than the cost of the wages. It's as simple as that.

You've had another wee turn, haven't you? The dicks the policy is aimed at aren't at work. They don't work. And I'd say that non-working dicks spending handouts on drugs is all the reason the policy needs. As for nothing stopping the drugs thing? That's your cue to roll out the threats again, innit? We'll all be slaughtered in our beds by the nasty addict looking for funds. Bring it on.

I have asked myself and I find that it is reasonable. the option has been available to all NZer's for how long? Yet some people still take shitty jobs to make ends meet. Yet we'll spend more on those who don't want to work than those who do. Thine ideology is full of awesomeness.

The govt must be lying then, else they wouldn't need to create more jobs would they? Of course there's no financial conspiracy. Economics and growth are all above board. The reason that it isn't a conspiracy is because it's total utter fuckin lunacy... but I wouldn't expect you to understand that given you still class economics it as a conspiracy.

Well fuckin duh. Of course they're not all at work, but I betcha there are plenty that are... again though, you'd have to reevaluate your categorisation of the dicks to understand what is actually happening... and I'll not be holding my breath.

Ok i understand you might, but i believe mine are closer to what most people actually think, hense the popularity of the policy.....(Not with beneficiaries obviously) but with the other 90%

Disagree with you there Mashy, as it is not reasonable, not to work, when there is work available, when on the unemployment benefit. They should all be willing to work surely? Either that, or withdraw the support.

Problem ,most i agree with (not all and not to the extent)But we never will so who cares
The reason for the policy.
With regards to you saying there is no reason. The major hurdle you face with that argument is the industry.
wants to test and so does the government. So that's all the reason they need.

You're guessing that that's what people really want given the ranting on KB? Or are you pulling ass hat figures, which I don't mind, to suit your bent? I pickin both. Be great if the public were educated enough to make the decision about how their money is spent. I'm guessing that those who show even a modicum of reason would see it as a zero sum game with potentially dangerous consequences for everyone. I'd say a good 90% of open minded people would see it differently to how you see it.

So you're happy with coercion then? You'd welcome a Police State wouldn't you?

I remember you saying that. If the industry is whining that they can't get enough staff, then ditch the stupid policy and trust people. It ain't hard... but first you'd need to accept that it's the policy that is the issue and not the people. Something I doubt one eyed fucktards are capable of...

You're all boring me again...

You've finished the donuts already? You're coming down man, break out the cupcakes.

All these well meaning/ill informed white knights running around pointing guns at windmills... while your all fighting amongst yourselves the real gold is being looted.... fools gold.....

What is this guns at windmills I keep hearing about? The gold is long gone because no one is fighting to keep it... it left with common sense and the brains of a population it would seem.

[Teflon]

[scumdog]

I'm sure you can hold out until the annual Burt fang, can't ya mate?

Maybe.

But not with this paranoid bunch...

[Akzle]

You seem to be having as much trouble reading other peoples posts as I have with yours.

As I said, if the expected wages matches the commercial income available to a business from that work then there is plenty of work for anyone that wants it.

Read slowly, it'll come.

there happens to be this thing in NZ. called MINIMUM WAGE.

i maintain that you are wrong, and that there IS NOT "plenty of work for anyone that wants it"

[flyingcrocodile46]

I'd say a good 90% of open minded people would see it differently to how you see it.

I'd bet that not even 90% of 90% of 90% of 90% of 90% of 90% of people would see it differently. I don't know what dole queue you hang out at, but in my experience (hanging with people that work for a living) You need to get off your arse and get a fucking job.

[flyingcrocodile46]

there happens to be this thing in NZ. called MINIMUM WAGE.

i maintain that you are wrong, and that there IS NOT "plenty of work for anyone that wants it"

I think he is perfectly correct. As long as the unemployed could pull finger and actually perform a productive work task in the economically appropriate period of time, there wouldn't need to be any unemployment. Businessed would be able to profit from their labour.. they would be hired.. that's how businesses work.

The problem is that a percentage of unemployed are unemployable and an even bigger percentage of them have got a shit attitude, are too lazy to get out of their own way and can't be fucked doing anything they don't want to. For a period of time (some longer than others, most unemployed people fit that mould). IMO

The unemployed need confidence and character building support and a good kick in the arse to keep their heads in the right place. Make them wear an electronic zapper collar if you want. Set them to work cleaning community facilities, painting, doing chores for old people etc. If they don't like it they can get a job. No free rides.

[mashman]

I'd bet that not even 90% of 90% of 90% of 90% of 90% of 90% of people would see it differently. I don't know what dole queue you hang out at, but in my experience (hanging with people that work for a living) You need to get off your arse and get a fucking job.

I did say open minded, thems that aren't neolithic. You sound mighty vengeful, why? Because they're spending your money on drugs? Would you rather see the lot on jail and pay 10 times as much just so that you can feel like "justice" has been done?

[Ocean1]

there happens to be this thing in NZ. called MINIMUM WAGE.

i maintain that you are wrong, and that there IS NOT "plenty of work for anyone that wants it"

Yeah. Trouble is there seems to be no such thing as minimum employee value.

In fact, those beheficiaries WINZ offer employers with a discount of around $180/week represent a wage of around $10 an hour. Still no takers. There's be no takers if they were free. Welcome to the real world.

[scumdog]

there happens to be this thing in NZ. called MINIMUM WAGE.

i maintain that you are wrong, and that there IS NOT "plenty of work for anyone that wants it"

Yer delivery is a tad drab...

[Ocean1]

Mashie. English, please.

The words, not the people.

[FJRider]

there happens to be this thing in NZ. called MINIMUM WAGE.

There are also those that pay contract rates. As such ... you can get paid less than minimum wage LEGALLY ... you need to work hard to get minimum wage.

[husaberg]

You're guessing that that's what people really want given the ranting on KB?

Or are you pulling ass hat figures, which I don't mind, to suit your bent? I pickin both.

Bit of both, but this morning i asked 20 people at work, if they thought of Drug testing people on the dole was a good idea.
18 said hell yes 1 said no no was undecided.
They will be biased though because they were working and they all get drug tested.
10 days ago Solid Energy suspended all the staff and contractors here about 280 (Pop about 11000) here probably 1100 in Westport.(Pop about 6000 i guess.)
There was a march on the street with between 3000 to 5000 according to people there no idea of the official count sorry. Where is the protests on the street for the drug policy. where is the petition for the beneficiaries?

Be great if the public were educated enough to make the decision about how their money is spent.

I'm guessing that those who show even a modicum of reason would see it as a zero sum game with potentially dangerous consequences for everyone. I'd say a good 90% of open minded people would see it differently to how you see it.

You mean well educated..... But to your point of view Mashy

So you're happy with coercion then?

You are kind of trying to coerces me there yourself Mashy so i am guessing you are ok with it.

You'd welcome a Police State wouldn't you?

No but at least the trains would run on time lol.
The policy that you say is evil was spelled out prior to the election and was not unpopular. i certainly don't agree with most of the Nats policies and didn't vote for them either, but shit this is what happen they formed a coalition and are governing us.

I remember you saying that. If the industry is whining that they can't get enough staff, then ditch the stupid policy and trust people.

Which bit did i say? Maybe The industry is whining they can't get enough Drug free staff?

It ain't hard... but first you'd need to accept that it's the policy that is the issue and not the people. Something I doubt one eyed fucktards are capable of...

The industry policy won't change. The issue is people not meeting a reasonable policy. and (plus more than 2x the money in Aussie where they still drug test BTW)
Using your words here rephrased.
People on drugs in the industry i work in(one eyed fucktards) Will kill people
Its not tiddly winks.

[scumdog]

People on drugs in the industry (one eyed fucktards) i work in Will kill people
Its not tiddly winks.

Pfft - try telling Axzle et al......

[flyingcrocodile46]

There are also those that pay contract rates. As such ... you can get paid less than minimum wage LEGALLY ... you need to work hard to get minimum wage.

Yes. The problem is that that means the individual actually has to do something in exchange for money. Fuck that. Far easier to skive off and break societies rules while society gives me the money I can't scam or steal from somewhere eh!

Time for some tough love. If that means they elect to break laws so they get a roof over their heads and free meals... then better that than rewarding them for being antisocial.

[mashman]

Mashie. English, please.

The words, not the people.

ok ok... There will always be unemployed people, especially where there aren't enough jobs (the govt admits this, why won't you?). There are already too many people that are in jobs claiming some form of benefit anyway and that highlights that most people will want to work. Even if there are enough jobs the unemployed will exist. To that end, give those who don't want to be employed/are unemployable their cash to spend on what they would like, instead of wasting money figuring out policy's that will hound them into still being unemployed/unemployable. It's not hard. The money would be better spent on other things.

Essentially it's futile screwing those who have nothing to lose... and doubly futile to believe it will save money, especially if those "types" are willing to go to jail in the first place and cost even more to support. Are you prepared to waste even more money on those who don't conform? (that does not mean that they don't work)