Part of Society? - For Akzle

[mashman]

Right. And before money it was what? Commodities?
Before that Grain? It's what people do! They collect and trade as much tradeable current commodity of the century, if it's not money next century it'll be something else!

Have you noticed what year we're currently in and there's been no change since the beginning of civilisation?

In year dot bc, there were thieves, rapists, bastards, poverty stricken, lazy, hard workers, child beaters, murderers, envy, strong and weak. NOTHING will change.
Every few decades there's a revolution or culture change of sorts, but we always end up the same.

Thanks for the history lesson. Maybe those who define themselves by their past will learn from it for a change. The reason we end up with the same is because we don't try to change it at all. Stuck on the money-go-round (value-go-round if you prefer). In year dot bc there were many communities who worked together without any form of reward at all. Then some fucktards stepped in with their value system, my cow is worth more than your chicken etc... and here we are today, my time is worth more than your time, your job isn't as important as my job, you do not deserve the same as me because you are worth less as dictated by social convention, I have more skills than you, I read more books than you etc... I see it on KB and in real life every day, but sure, go ahead and pretend that it doesn't happen. It doesn't necessarily lie with the wealthy, but they certainly valued their idea and their time more than the "cooperative" of workers that built up their fortune.

That's not what I meant and I'm sure you know it, hardly the same comparison. The point was, that some people are fiscally responsible and don't need to blame outside influences for simple economics of over spending or not saving!!

I did know what you meant, I just took it a little further similar to yourself and the history of trade. Your saying that the economy doesn't have an affect of people's lives (tell that to those who have lost their livelihoods and their homes)? or that circumstances outwith their control don't shove someone to the bottom of the heap? Again, pretending that these things don't happen, or excusing it because it isn't the norm is the very reason that things don't change. You don't value their position in the slightest.

Trust me, So many people are doing their bit to co-exist and if more people bothered about doing their bit wouldn't be so bad out there. Much easier to whinge and join websites together though aye.

Oh I know there are. I spent an eye opening 2 weeks in Kosovo. It is much easier to whinge and join websites together... it's even easier to ignore the fact that people die needlessly around the world everyday, have poor health, have poor education, are lesser human beings than ourselves.

Right-o, you are who you are because of who you aren't yet, what you haven't experienced and what you don't know, yet? Seems legit, it's your story!

Not smart enough? There you go again making assumptions. Maybe folks just don't care, maybe they have different ideas, maybe there's thousands of good people and volunteers in your community that you're taking for granted!!!

... oddly enough and as strange as it may seem, yes, absolutely, I am who I am because I aren't allowed to be.

2 for 2 eh, ya don't see that everyday, and the pair of you saying that I'm making assumptions ... my sincerest apologies that I had a completely different meaning for that phrase than you and Boris quoted. You don't think that that phrase could mean something other than how you read it? Or did the fact that Boris missed the point as well taint your view? I'm more than happy to explain what I meant further should you wish... but I won't worry about you not doing so, because you told me what I meant . On a daily basis I realise that there out people out there doing stuff to help people and I detest that they have to do so under such poor funding conditions. I don't take it for granted, in fact I see it as a travesty of human justice and an inevitable yet unrequired part of the value system, that there are people who have to rely on volunteers. Those volunteers would still be there for the people they help, and so would many many many more if the financial system was removed, as would there be more teachers available, doctors, nurses, builders etc... as we wouldn't have to employ to a budget. Not being cheeky, but is it sinking in yet?

[Genestho]

Thanks for the history lesson. Maybe those who define themselves by their past will learn from it for a change. The reason we end up with the same is because we don't try to change it at all. Stuck on the money-go-round (value-go-round if you prefer). In year dot bc there were many communities who worked together without any form of reward at all. Then some fucktards stepped in with their value system, my cow is worth more than your chicken etc... and here we are today, my time is worth more than your time, your job isn't as important as my job, you do not deserve the same as me because you are worth less as dictated by social convention, I have more skills than you, I read more books than you etc... I see it on KB and in real life every day, but sure, go ahead and pretend that it doesn't happen. It doesn't necessarily lie with the wealthy, but they certainly valued their idea and their time more than the "cooperative" of workers that built up their fortune.

Ahhh. Go on then, one more lob.
You make it sound like it was some alien that bought the value system in. It's human nature!

Maybe those who think the unforseeable future defines them could see that society should and does continue to evolve but it still has basic human nature faults, this is something that can never change unless you eliminate inherent negative characteristics and so on, these faults can't be pre- packaged to suit your requirements, many will pervert the system and take liberties because they can, because they want to.

Don't "we" me, white boy. People DO try to change things, darn sight more than you're doing!
Going back to simple economics, I submit to you: some people are not on the Money go round at all.

If you want to change centuries of consumerism and ownership behaviour, I suggest you press the red button and see what scuttles out of the rubble, I bet before too long it will all go the same, and it'll start with: who's got the biggest collection of rubble and cockroaches to trade.

See, in your utopia you can't plan for human nature, or lack of it.


I did know what you meant, I just took it a little further similar to yourself and the history of trade. Your saying that the economy doesn't have an affect of people's lives (tell that to those who have lost their livelihoods and their homes)? or that circumstances outwith their control don't shove someone to the bottom of the heap? Again, pretending that these things don't happen, or excusing it because it isn't the norm is the very reason that things don't change. You don't value their position in the slightest.

Don't I? really? You assume again.
I value their position because I've been there and I know for sure you can climb out, you can climb out of almost any situation if you put your mind to it, you may have to hit the bottom first but you can and will climb out. I'm a kiwi kid of the 70's. There's heaps of us, crazy - I KNOW!

Oh it's obvious there's affects on peoples lives I've been helping friends with re shaping and re-adapting businesses in this climate and we know this is all un-chartered territory, it's said this depression could last for near 20 years, it's also said speculation can cause no amount of horror - speculation works both ways though, again survival is all simple economics.



Oh I know there are. I spent an eye opening 2 weeks in Kosovo. It is much easier to whinge and join websites together... it's even easier to ignore the fact that people die needlessly around the world everyday, have poor health, have poor education, are lesser human beings than ourselves.

I'm sorry, but I'm more worried about my own country wo/men, people die needlessly and not even in someone else's wars. And again that's you suggesting that others are lesser human beings, those are your words, dude. Say something long enough and it becomes a believed state of mind.


... oddly enough and as strange as it may seem, yes, absolutely, I am who I am because I aren't allowed to be.

Bummer, you should change that. You know what they say, Be the change you want to see in the world! Hehe, Sorry I couldn't resist - that was naughty of me


2 for 2 eh, ya don't see that everyday, and the pair of you saying that I'm making assumptions ... my sincerest apologies that I had a completely different meaning for that phrase than you and Boris quoted. You don't think that that phrase could mean something other than how you read it? Or did the fact that Boris missed the point as well taint your view? I'm more than happy to explain what I meant further should you wish... but I won't worry about you not doing so, because you told me what I meant . On a daily basis I realise that there out people out there doing stuff to help people and I detest that they have to do so under such poor funding conditions. I don't take it for granted, in fact I see it as a travesty of human justice and an inevitable yet unrequired part of the value system, that there are people who have to rely on volunteers. Those volunteers would still be there for the people they help, and so would many many many more if the financial system was removed, as would there be more teachers available, doctors, nurses, builders etc... as we wouldn't have to employ to a budget. Not being cheeky, but is it sinking in yet?

Yeah, see you've made more than 2 for 2 assumptions today now haven't you, you're on a roll!
It's been said on more than one occasion - you might need to check your delivery, how would I know it has another meaning than from what you write, must say some of your sentences are hard to read!

Sink in? You are joking!

Nope and it's never going to while I use logic, while I accept things could change, your opinion is yours and I challenge it, please accept mine.

Different worlds, different experiences, different people, different views, different beliefs.

However, please Don't let my logic stop you from tapping away at the keyboard!

[mashman]

thanks for that post. I dun gotta split this'n in two

Ahhh. Go on then, one more lob.
You make it sound like it was some alien that bought the value system in. It's human nature!

Maybe those who think the unforseeable future defines them could see that society should and does continue to evolve but it still has basic human nature faults, this is something that can never change unless you eliminate inherent negative characteristics and so on, these faults can't be pre- packaged to suit your requirements, many will pervert the system and take liberties because they can, because they want to.

Don't "we" me, white boy. People DO try to change things, darn sight more than you're doing!
Going back to simple economics, I submit to you: some people are not on the Money go round at all.

If you want to change centuries of consumerism and ownership behaviour, I suggest you press the red button and see what scuttles out of the rubble, I bet before too long it will all go the same, and it'll start with: who's got the biggest collection of rubble and cockroaches to trade.

See, in your utopia you can't plan for human nature, or lack of it.

I thought we owed the aliems money? Isn't that where it comes from and why we have such a limited supply that there isn't enough to go around? I can't accept human nature as an argument, otherwise myself and others that feel similarly to myself would be aliems. If that is the case, I hear by relieve you of the need to use a value system.

I agree that society evolves and it's time to do so again, but with a human beings in mind, not money. Oh my giddy aunt, really, we'd need to remove the inherent negative characteristics of human nature before we could make a change? And here's me thinking that we live in a democracy. Removing the mechanism of value will remove most of the negative impacts of society. Ofcourse there will always be those who will try to pervert any system, but one without value will be by far harder to pervert... and those who try to pervert the system will be obvious and their actions will be miniscule in comparison to the deeds they get away with today.

Don't wag that scraggly finger at me woman, as I'm fully aware that there are those who are doing more than me, always have been, always will be and I only seek to follow their example and make their lives easier by offering them a society that will happily give their excess to those who need it and not expect anything in return. As I said earlier, the idea behind charity abhores me given the resources that are available. You can have what you need as long as someone can find the money for it? Awesomeness.

I'd rather manage it out of existence and educate it out of the next generation. Kids aren't born with an understanding of money, hell they don't even know what a tape cassette is. Time for the adults to lead by example, instead of squabbling over the scraps of paper and metal required to obtain "stuff". There's enough for all, even more so if consumerism disappears. To that end I would question anyone's motives for not wanting to walk such a path in order to ensure a future for the next generation. Or shall we wait for the big red button pushers to decide that nations should die because of their faith? or the amount of oil they have? or the amount of food they have? or the amount of diamonds they have?

In my "utopia", everyone is exactly how they are today, this minute. Your ide of my utopia seems to be far from the mark.

Don't I? really? You assume again.
I value their position because I've been there and I know for sure you can climb out, you can climb out of almost any situation if you put your mind to it, you may have to hit the bottom first but you can and will climb out. I'm a kiwi kid of the 70's. There's heaps of us, crazy - I KNOW!

Oh it's obvious there's affects on peoples lives I've been helping friends with re shaping and re-adapting businesses in this climate and we know this is all un-chartered territory, it's said this depression could last for near 20 years, it's also said speculation can cause no amount of horror - speculation works both ways though, again survival is all simple economics.

Ok so maybe there was a hint of a smile as I typed a few phrases, but nonetheless you chose to interpret them in a particular way. No doubt due to my posting history, of which you seem to pick and choose what I meant without seeking clarification, or even trying to put yourself in my shoes (not recommended). I've been at the bottom too, I was happy. Although I wasn't too happy with not eating so that my son could, or walking the 8 mile round trip to Uni, or scrabbling down the back of the sofa for nappy money etc... and now that I look back on it, I see no reason that I should have had to. Why shouldn't my son have had everything he needed without having to see myself and g/f stressing over where the next penny was going to come from? I am fully aware that I was not the only person to have done that back in the day. I am fully aware that the exact same thing goes on day in and day out today. I really really see no reason for it to be that way. Again begging the question, why would anyone fight against a system that advocates alleviating some of the pressure of family's/people in such a position? And all because of money, not human nature, but money.

So end the speculation of economics. Replace it with logistics. A needs B at C, no charge, no ties, no worries, job done. Considering that the economy crashes every 15 to 20 years, you'll excuse me for not putting any faith in it.

I'm sorry, but I'm more worried about my own country wo/men, people die needlessly and not even in someone else's wars. And again that's you suggesting that others are lesser human beings, those are your words, dude. Say something long enough and it becomes a believed state of mind.

I wasn't suggesting anything of the sort, I was citing it as a reason for them dying, receiving poor health treatment and poor education. I can understand why you may see it the opposite way though. Say something long enough eh... you should try to be more positive about human nature and stop focussing on the negative elements that are primarily situational then. I'll understand why you won't, sort of.

Bummer, you should change that. You know what they say, Be the change you want to see in the world! Hehe, Sorry I couldn't resist - that was naughty of me :devil:

, no need to apologise, I've never felt more alive. Disappointed, but very very much alive and settling into my new skin further and further every single day. It's all positive.

[mashman]

Yeah, see you've made more than 2 for 2 assumptions today now haven't you, you're on a roll!
It's been said on more than one occasion - you might need to check your delivery, how would I know it has another meaning than from what you write, must say some of your sentences are hard to read!

Sink in? You are joking!

Nope and it's never going to while I use logic, while I accept things could change, your opinion is yours and I challenge it, please accept mine.

Different worlds, different experiences, different people, different views, different beliefs.

However, please Don't let my logic stop you from tapping away at the keyboard!

I have? That's news to me... but please, by all means, don't for a minute stop to consider that those assumptions may have have meant something slightly different... even though I did say as much in an ealier post.
I ain't all smart like some folks, my command of the engrish language is poor, so my delivery is what it is and all it can be unfortunately... and irrespective of how I may phrase me writin, ya still gotta get past your perception of the writee and your perception of their motives.

Dunno, is it sinkin in? as you seem to be mistranslating so much of what I try to write

I accept your opinion and disgaree with it. I see no logic in your "argument". Human nature and its inability to change seems to be all you have, yet human beings constantly change, some even step out of society, some half out, some disassociate entirely etc... Those arguments have no logic if you're willing to accept that people will die because of money. I'd love to know how many crimes are committed due to human nature v's the quest for a simple buck. Removing money removes one lot of those crimes. Leave the money and it doesn't. Human nature in that they don't have to commit the crime v's removing the thing that they commit the crime for? I know which one logic would dictate would yield the better result.

Viva la difference... I whole heartedly agree with ya. You'll not object to a value free world then should democracy ever be employed to vote it in? You'll just accept it?

As stated above, you'll need to have some logic in your "argument" first before my fingers would stop a tappin sissa girl.

[Genestho]

Oh my Christ. How many times have you replied to the same post now? Did you go have a whiskey? How long did that all take??

You are just going round in circles. It's no wonder you get nothing done!! ahh a wee edit there.

[mashman]

Oh my Christ. How many times have you replied to the same post now? Did you go have a whiskey? How long did that all take??

You are just going round in circles. It's no wonder you get nothing done!! ahh a wee edit there.

the compooter told me that my post was too long, so I split it in two only to find that the compooter was trollin me. Damn you micro chips. It didn't take too long, about 30 mins I guess or 21% of battery.

Stop confusing me, it's way to easy and it confuses me.

[imdying]

Thanks for the history lesson. Maybe those who define themselves by their past will learn from it for a change. The reason we end up with the same is because we don't try to change it at all. Stuck on the money-go-round (value-go-round if you prefer). In year dot bc there were many communities who worked together without any form of reward at all.

This is not true. Even at day dot there were commodities with a higher value than others. Last weeks news of the 4500 year old settlement in Bulgaria for wealthy salt miners was the most recent evidence of that.

[mashman]

This is not true. Even at day dot there were commodities with a higher value than others. Last weeks news of the 4500 year old settlement in Bulgaria for wealthy salt miners was the most recent evidence of that.

and before then?

[GTRMAN]

and before then?

Barter economy or subsistence living....... I'm not sure that money is the problem. The attitude we have to it is the problem, the way we attach a persons value to the amount they have or don't have is the problem Avarice and greed is the problem.

[imdying]

and before then?

Nearly the exact same behaviour went on.

I had an animal skin I slept under... you had a twig you used to dig for roots with.

Naturally I would not swap my hard to get rug for your find anywhere twig.

The difference is, rather than negotiating a fair rate like we do now, you just bashed me with a rock and took my rug.

[Edbear]

Barter economy or subsistence living....... I'm not sure that money is the problem. The attitude we have to it is the problem, the way we attach a persons value to the amount they have or don't have is the problem Avarice and greed is the problem.

Yup! If it weren't money it would be whatever was held to be of value. Power and control is more valuable and people go all out for that too.

Human nature dictates what is of value and what is worth pursuing.

[mashman]

Barter economy or subsistence living....... I'm not sure that money is the problem. The attitude we have to it is the problem, the way we attach a persons value to the amount they have or don't have is the problem Avarice and greed is the problem.

Barter amongst those of the same community? Not a cooperative effort so that all reap the rewards/benefit of that cooperative effort? I agree with that to a certain extent. Avarice and greed is a motivation for some, however so is just getting a few bucks by hook or by crook. Remove the money and implement an economy based solely on the logistics of what is required to be done for "subsistence living" and what are you left with? Would you say that attitudes would change if money wasn't a factor? Would you say that avarice and greed would be as predominant as it is now?

Nearly the exact same behaviour went on.

I had an animal skin I slept under... you had a twig you used to dig for roots with.

Naturally I would not swap my hard to get rug for your find anywhere twig.

The difference is, rather than negotiating a fair rate like we do now, you just bashed me with a rock and took my rug.

Did it?

I had an animal skin I slept under... you had a twig you used to dig for roots with.

Naturally I would not swap my hard to get rug for your find anywhere twig... but I would show and help you get your own.

The difference is, rather than negotiating a fair rate like we do now, you just helped each other to both gain without risking needless injury. Jeez yer a neanderthal.

Yup! If it weren't money it would be whatever was held to be of value. Power and control is more valuable and people go all out for that too.

Human nature dictates what is of value and what is worth pursuing.

It probably would, but only if you decide to live that way. There is a choice. In this day and age I highly doubt power and control is possible without money.

Human nature dictates nothing of the sort. If it's there we either go for it or we don't. Not everyone pursues things because of the value those things have. So it isn't human nature, more a conscious individual circumstantial choice.

[imdying]

Naturally I would not swap my hard to get rug for your find anywhere twig... but I would show and help you get your own.

No you wouldn't... you'd exploit a weakness as soon as you could find one, then you would slay me and take my loot.

I do agree that there was cooperation; but it would have been spawned from the desire for more. If I was too big for you to kill, you would have recruited a helper to bash me at the same time.

[mashman]

No you wouldn't... you'd exploit a weakness as soon as you could find one, then you would slay me and take my loot.

I do agree that there was cooperation; but it would have been spawned from the desire for more. If I was too big for you to kill, you would have recruited a helper to bash me at the same time.

Yes I would (2 pairs of eyes being better than 1 n all)... that and I'd prefer you squirming as I took what I wanted

Spawned by a desire for more? That may well have been part of it, but I'd be surprised given that there were no refrigerators to keep the hoard fresh. Would I have not waited until you were asleep or potentially gained your trust and poisoned you? Always with the brute force, you must have anger issues

[imdying]

Yes I would (2 pairs of eyes being better than 1 n all)... that and I'd prefer you squirming as I took what I wanted

Spawned by a desire for more? That may well have been part of it, but I'd be surprised given that there were no refrigerators to keep the hoard fresh. Would I have not waited until you were asleep or potentially gained your trust and poisoned you? Always with the brute force, you must have anger issues

Of course with the brute force, that and cunning were all they had more than 4500 years ago.

But yes, the desire for more... why be warm, or fed, when you can be warm and fed? Why not be warm and fed if the only thing stopping you is me?

Community would have been fueled by this, the desire not to be bashed to death in your sleep. But people still want/need things... thus hello Mr Commerce.